I do judo, to to me it’s “kata gatame” but a friend of mine is referring to an arm triangle as an arm- in choke.
To me it seems like arm- in choke is kind of vague, as in it could refer to a class of chokes, including the arm triangle, arm in guillotine, etc.
Any thoughts from the bjj/sub grapplers out there?
That’s definitely an Arm Triangle.
The only time I’ve ever heard anything references as an “Arm In” anything was for guillotines.
BJJ terminology tends to agree with you.
I’ve more commonly heard “arm triangle” or “side choke”, but “arm-in” choke would not technically be incorrect.
“Arm triangle” is just as vague as “arm-in” and really refers to a whole class of chokes. For example the Anaconda and the D’Arce are arm triangle chokes.
[quote=Punisher;2344397]
“Arm triangle” is just as vague as “arm-in” and really refers to a whole class of chokes. For example the Anaconda and the D’Arce are arm triangle chokes.[/quote]Yeah, but if you just say ‘arm triangle’ with no qualifier it, by convention, means kata-gatame. Just like there are a lot of leg triangle chokes, but in BJJ ‘triangle choke’ refers to a specific one (the most common). The convention is more or less arbitrary, but if you stick to it people will know what you’re talking about.
Good stuff, guys. Both valid points. Sort of like talking about an armbar. If you say armbar, what do most grapplers think of?
From the side. Arm between the knees, attacker’s hip in tight to the shoulder, knees together, thumb pointing up, elbow extended. Could start from knee-ride, side control, mount, or from the bottom from guard etc, ending on the side though.
Vs an inverted armbar where the both are on their stomachs, or a straight armbar/armlock which has a number of angles as well.
i don’t think using the judo term kata gatame would be entirely appropriate to describe the choke. kata gatame can be but rarely utilized as a choke in judo, as a judoka would try to finish the match in osaekomi, rather than going for shime in shiai. i’ve only seen this pulled off in nawaza randori and never in shiai.
[quote=kenikim;2345107]i don’t think using the judo term kata gatame would be entirely appropriate to describe the choke. kata gatame can be but rarely utilized as a choke in judo, as a judoka would try to finish the match in osaekomi, rather than going for shime in shiai. i’ve only seen this pulled off in nawaza randori and never in shiai.[/quote]What would that choke be classified as, in Judo?
On Judoforum on this topic, it has stated by a 8th degree black belt that it would be hadaka jime, as (paraphrase) “any choke not using the gi is hadaka jime”.
I find this ridiculous, myself. Nami juji jime, kata juji jime, and gyaku juji jime (X chokes’ 3 separate hand orientations, for those that don’t speak Judo) are all separate techniques, but the guillotine, RNC, arm triangle, breadcutter, etc. are all one technique? Plus, the triangle doesn’t use a gi but has its own classification.
In Best Judo Inokuma and Sato state that kata gatame is an osaekomi with elements of a choke.
I’ve never seen a non-kata gatame arm triangle being used in Judo competition or instructional video (discounting Aoki’s no-gi vids), such as the brabo or anaconda or reverse arm triangle - has anyone else? If so, remember what it was named?
I’m inclined to call it kata jime, and I believe I have heard yudansha in my dojo refer to it as such, but that’s entirely dojo slang. AFAIK, there is officially either no name for it, or it is hadaka jime.
I always call it kata-gatame, but kata-gtame is officially classified as a pin. In judo I defiantly use it as a pin - a very uncomfortable one which partially chokes the opponent and quickly takes the fight out of them.
Kata-gatame is usually taught with a gable grip, which makes it a lot less tight, but makes more sense with those big wide judogi sleeves. I personally find it makes it easier to readjust and keep form being rolled as well.
As to the naming scheme for the judo chokes - I try not to think about it, it just doesn’t make much sense.
[quote=Blue Negation;2345345]On Judoforum on this topic, it has stated by a 8th degree black belt that it would be hadaka jime, as (paraphrase) “any choke not using the gi is hadaka jime”.
I find this ridiculous, myself. Nami juji jime, kata juji jime, and gyaku juji jime (X chokes’ 3 separate hand orientations, for those that don’t speak Judo) are all separate techniques, but the guillotine, RNC, arm triangle, breadcutter, etc. are all one technique? Plus, the triangle doesn’t use a gi but has its own classification.
In Best Judo Inokuma and Sato state that kata gatame is an osaekomi with elements of a choke.
I’ve never seen a non-kata gatame arm triangle being used in Judo competition or instructional video (discounting Aoki’s no-gi vids), such as the brabo or anaconda or reverse arm triangle - has anyone else? If so, remember what it was named?
I’m inclined to call it kata jime, and I believe I have heard yudansha in my dojo refer to it as such, but that’s entirely dojo slang. AFAIK, there is officially either no name for it, or it is hadaka jime.[/quote]
who was it? i’m curious as most of them are pretty private and don’t discuss their ranks much. did it say he is ‘hachidan’ in the profile underneath the name?
and yes, judo terms suck when it comes to going outside the kodokan syllabus, and people will come down on you if you start coming up with non-kodokan names. this is something that needs to change, but will never change.
and calling this hadaka jime would be correct i guess. no different than calling te-guruma as sukui-nage. the moves share some of the same concept, but the similarities end there…
sangaku is different though, as 1st, sangaku is recognized by the kodokan, and 2nd, it involves the legs. all hadaka jime involves the arms only, i think, except for that funky foot choke thingy… so in conclusion, yes, kodokan terms suck…
I’m also under the impression that Kata Gatame is a pin rather than a choke. If you’ve got hulk arms you could turn it into a choke, but I prefer to keep the shoulder into the tricep, switch hips to belly down and walk out sideways for the more BJJ like arm triangle.
I could be wrong, but I thought Kata Gatame was more of an arm-in headlock, not a choke.
These things are not mutually exclusive.
all the brazilians seem to call it kata gatame…
[quote=kenikim;2346514]who was it? i’m curious as most of them are pretty private and don’t discuss their ranks much. did it say he is ‘hachidan’ in the profile underneath the name?
and yes, judo terms suck when it comes to going outside the kodokan syllabus, and people will come down on you if you start coming up with non-kodokan names. this is something that needs to change, but will never change.
and calling this hadaka jime would be correct i guess. no different than calling te-guruma as sukui-nage. the moves share some of the same concept, but the similarities end there…
sangaku is different though, as 1st, sangaku is recognized by the kodokan, and 2nd, it involves the legs. all hadaka jime involves the arms only, i think, except for that funky foot choke thingy… so in conclusion, yes, kodokan terms suck…[/quote]
Read this thread: http://judoforum.com/index.php?/topic/43934-darce-or-brabo-choke-in-judo/page__st_10 Feel free to PM me on this topic.
You can still choke with a knee up, even without hulk arms. You just need to get the details right. Get your elbow deep, get your head low (“ear-to-ear”), etc. Put your back muscles into it and suck them into you as if you were doing a X choke with the gi. That’s how I do it when I feel like they’d escape if I went flat, anyway.
Also, it’s still kata gatame, the pin, if you go flat.