Its bjj. We get taken down, then we work from the ground.
Ok, flame teh fuck on, i don’t care. BJJ has SUCKY takedowns, and anyone who denies that is a liar and an idiot.
Well, according to one Royce Gracie (Ultimate Fighting Techniques, Volume One, Page 103)
“In Gracie Jiu Jitsu it seems that you spend half your time either defending the guard or passing the guard.”
Also, there is a catch influence on Eddie Bravo’s stuff. The Twister (a move that is hugely important to Eddie’s game) is originally a catch move, it was called the Wrestlers Guillotine or the Cobra Stretch. I saw a black and white pic of a guy winning a catch match with one in a thread on mma.tv, I will try and find it to post it here.
No, there is a SCHOLASTIC WRESTLING influence on Bravo’s stuff. The Twister is the wrestler’s guillotine, which in his own books he describes learning in high school wrestling. Yes, it’s also probably present in catch. No, Bravo did not learn it from catch.
I understand the goal of always being on top, but i foresee catch wrestling forgetting about how dangerous the guard can be…Sort of like how b.j.j. put too much faith in the guard…
JUST WATCH MMA FROM THE LATE NINETIES, PLEASE, GOD, JUST DO IT, OK? YOU’LL SEE ALL THESE FUCKING B.J.J GUYS PLAYING GUARD,AND GETTING THEIR FACE POUNDED FOR IT. WHY? WRESTLERS WOULD COME IN, AND TAKE THEM DOWN, AND INSTEAD OF STUFFING THE TAKEDOWN, OR EVEN TRY TO STUFF IT, THEY WOULD JUST PULL MOTHER FUCKING GUARD, AND GET THEIR FACE BEATEN TO A PULP FOR IT.
Is someone going to see some fucking sense, now that i’m “screaming” it?
I thought folkstyle/collegiate wrestling was created by removing all the “dangerous” holds from catch to make it safer to practice, sort of like how jujutsu gave birth to judo. But I’m going to abandon this line of arguement before someone links to darkplanet catchwrestling and makes Dos Caras Jr. jokes.
Said I would reply to post#41, so here it is:
“I could still really go for those guard opening pressure point locations…
Aside from that I don’t think we’ve seen any arguments that demonstrate that Catch has any unique and valuable insights to offer the modern grappling community.”
***THEN for starters, you clearly need to get a copy of Yosiaki Fugiwara’s vids, starting with one entitled: SUBMISSION MASTER…and take a good look at a whole series of submission holds, many of which I suspect that you’ve never seen and certainly have no idea about how those subs could be set up - and from what “positions.” (Fugiwara was catch great Karl Gotch’s top student; and it was Fugiwara’s training partner, Takada, who taught catch to Kazushi Sakuraba).
…
“The entire position hierarchy of BJJ exists as it does because as you go higher up the chain you have more control over your opponent.”
***SPOKEN like someone who is still convinced that this chain of hierarchy positions is a formula that MUST be followed if one wants to maximize their chances for grappling success - which is just not true. You don’t have to follow the flowchart and still submit people - including very talented people. You can control people without the flowchart.
Sakuraba and Barnett are two prime examples of what I’m talking about. On a number of occasions in his fights, once Sakuraba got cross chest (side control) position - the fight was over. (Royler is an example of this.) In that fight Sak didn’t have to even think about going for the top saddle (mount) once he got the cross chest.
And furthermore, go back and look carefully at exactly how he began to isolate Royler’s further arm and shoulder the moment he hit the position…isolated them and set up the pull-in to the double wristlock - exactly the way it is taught by Fugiwara on SUBMISSION MASTER. Detail-by-detail.
On other occasions the fight was over while his back was turned from a standing position. (Renzo is an example of this).
…
“So the idea of ‘Control before Submission’ vs ‘Position before submission’ is just misdirection.”
***NO, what it is…is a very subtle difference in grappling strategy.
…
“Having superior position gives you superior control, just because you CAN control someone enough to land a sub from a bad position doesn’t make it a good idea.”
***AND HERE is the whole crux of the catch argument. You have been indoctrinated into the idea that only a certain limited number of positions can offer superior control - and therefore you think that other positions are “bad” - even if you can “somehow” manage to land a sub form there.
Using the Sak/Renzo fight as an example again - once Sak seized control of one of Renzo’s arms with two of his - and before he actually began to crank the double wristlock - he had superior control. Is this a “bad” position to be in?
Catch breaks the BJJ rules (at times - and at other times there’s definitely overlap). But even though his back was turned to Renzo (a “bad” position in your estimation) - he nonetheless had control as soon as he secured the two-on-one…which really wasn’t that difficult to do. (And it was the same relative “position” as when he was being bear hugged from behind a moment earlier). Btw, Sak’s training vid is also excellent - and he demo’s/explains this very series of moves he used on Renzo as part of what he covers.
…
"If you want to attack the idea of working off of your back in guard, well most people in BJJ will agree that it is always preferable to be on top, hence the positional hierarchy. But since you can CONTROL someone with your guard and land the sub, it’s perfectly reasonable to do so if you have a good guard game.
As you can see, BJJ and Catch concepts overlap in many ways. Catch needs to be modernized and you need to realize that BJJ now isn’t the same as it was in 1993. The BJJ game expands more and more every year…"
***AND people lijke Sakuraba, Barnett, Fugiwara, Billy Robinson, Tony Cecchine, and some others are doing just that - modernizing catch wrestling.
BJJ=Gay
Catch Wrestling=In the closet
SAMBO=Russian BJJ
Judo=On top BJJ
JJJ=Transexuals
'nuff said.
I knew it, _ing _un is the only effective form of fighting.
You need to make sense first. Put too much faith in the guard? If the BJJ guys did place so much emphasis on guard, think how much worst they would get their asses kicked when they get taken down by wrestlers. BJJ, like Judo and wrestling, has takedowns they just don’t emphasize it like BJJ or Judo.
I haven’t read a single post, including the OP, but I thought I would drop in to say that I support the message in the thread title.
Absolutely none. My assertion was based on what I’ve seen in Matt Furey videos, read on this forum and others, and seen in videos of other self styled catch wrestlers. I think it’s a pretty solid position, but if someone can find a substantial body of techniques or concepts within catch that are useful and not also contained in BJJ and list them out for me I will certainly concede the point.
I will arrange to acquire a copy forthwith.
***SPOKEN like someone who is still convinced that this chain of hierarchy positions is a formula that MUST be followed if one wants to maximize their chances for grappling success - which is just not true. You don’t have to follow the flowchart and still submit people - including very talented people. You can control people without the flowchart.
No matter how many times you say this it doesn’t change the fact that it is EASIER to control someone when have mount as opposed to when they have your back.
It is EASIER to control someone from top side control than bottom side control.
And yes, I do think that Sakuraba was in a bad position. Had he failed to finish the sub he would have been in terrible shape.
The result of failing a submission has to be considered when you think about what position you are attempting to execute the sub from.
***AND people lijke Sakuraba, Barnett, Fugiwara, Billy Robinson, Tony Cecchine, and some others are doing just that - modernizing catch wrestling.
Unfortunately they would be better off to start with an art that’s already modernized and add their Catch philosophy and techniques into it. They should learn BJJ.
Wow, I come back after a month or so (Bullshido is now blocked at work) and what do I find? Catch cultists.
[URL=“http://youtube.com/watch?v=34s9aNg5Bng”]
If this is the quality of what Fujiwara’s tape had, then I can say, why the hell are you even bothering with an antiquated art, diluted by years and years and years of fixed fights and lost techniques, when odds are near you there’s probably a competent BJJ instructor who can teach you real grappling and, like BJJ itself, is battle tested in competition. Tony and Jake can argue for all eternity who has teh r33l catch, at the end of the day, if you’re in a major metropolitan area, there’s probably a more qualified BJJ instructor you’d go to anyway.
Lurk more.:lurk:
Lemme guess…it worked when you rolled with white belts…[/QUOTE]
Exactly. It won’t fucking work against someone more experienced and/or stronger. The only way this would work is against a white belt unnacostumed to pain or if you are like Hulk Hogan and your opponent is Peewee Herman.
Besides, let’s hypothetically think about it. Let’s assume you can apply pressure and get them to open up the guard. Then what? Can you capitalize it? What if the opponent opens up the guard and uses the fact your elbow (more preciselly, your t-rexed arm) is just one pussy hair away from being shoved in between the legs to set up a triangle or armbar?
Opening the guard is not the end and be of all of it. You have to be able to capitalize on it. I mean, for fucks sake, a good player would immediately transition into something else the moment his guard is open. Or worse, he may be opening it to set you up, to bait you.
Now, let’s put aside the improbability of opening up the guard AND CAPITALIZE ON IT by merely applying pressure with the elbow without getting triangle-choked the fuck out.
Let’s consider Parlati’s proposition of hitting it 3-4 times with the elbow. We are no longer talking about applying pressure, but actually hitting it.
This would occur in a setting where your opponent could do the same to you. Does anyone actually believe a good MMAer would be there, letting his opponent hitting him 3-4 times on the inside of the thigh, without him doing anything, without hitting back, or setting up a triangle or a sweep (using his opponent’s efforts in hitting the thigh to his advantage?
Freaking vale tudo fights have been occuring for more than four+ decades now. MMA wasn’t really invented in 1993. Now, in all that time (be it since 1993 or for the last four+ decades), how many times have competent MMA/Vale Tudo fighters utilized such tactics to OPEN UP GUARD AND CAPITALIZE ON IT against other competent MMA/Vale Tudo fighters?
The operative word here is competent. Not goatarded, noob, inexperienced, fish out the water, Dos Caras Jr, or Art ‘One-Glove’ Jimmerson, but competent.
[SIZE=“4”]How many? How fucking many?[/SIZE]
It is one thing to have a concoted wrestling/grappling system that can work for S/D against your regular schmuck. Most people don’t know what to do when hit in the face, much less receive pain on their thighs. Such methods would work on them. But then again, the regular Joe wouldn’t be putting you on guard, so the relevance of such a technique is moot.
It is quite another thing, however, to believe this will actually work against a competent grappler.
And Parlati, you may want to ignore this as much as you want, just like the Church wanted to ignore heliocentrism back in the 16th century.
And it is fucking relevant to this thread. This, and many other things are why YOUR teachings on CW will not be the grappling future in MMA. Fallacies don’t win fights against competent fighters.
Femeral artery guard opening my ass. Ignore it as you please. It won’t go away.
You are a 4 month white belt. Please think about that when you decide to make sweeping generalizations.
And that is what you get for purchasing, or even reading, anything written by Royce Gracie.
If there’s one thing Eddie Bravo loves, it’s catch wrestling.
http://darkplanetcatchwrestling.com/
Is it just me, or does Bullshido seem dumber today than it did yesterday?
Spoken like someone who has never trained in BJJ, never rolled with good people in BJJ or sub grappling, and doesn’t know shit about sub grappling. You just don’t know what you are talking about.
There is a hierarchy of positions that give more and more control. But that doesn’t mean your goal is to just move through the heirarchy. The goal is to sub. Sub grappling is opportunistic. If you can get a sub, you take it. One option you have in any position is to try to improve your position. BJJ isn’t paint-by-number or follow-the-flowchart. It is a personal and individual way of sub grappling. Your personal choices will depend on what your strengths, what you are most comfortable with, your weaknesses, and so forth.
Sakuraba and Barnett are two prime examples of what I’m talking about. On a number of occasions in his fights, once Sakuraba got cross chest (side control) position - the fight was over. (Royler is an example of this.) In that fight Sak didn’t have to even think about going for the top saddle (mount) once he got the cross chest.
And furthermore, go back and look carefully at exactly how he began to isolate Royler’s further arm and shoulder the moment he hit the position…isolated them and set up the pull-in to the double wristlock - exactly the way it is taught by Fugiwara on SUBMISSION MASTER. Detail-by-detail.
Some in BJJ prefer side control to mount as well. So what? If you personally are better in side control than mount, wouldn’t that make sense?
Your keep confusing individual, personal choices with “institutional” choices. BJJ doesn’t tell you what you must do. There is no digma. That would only produce really poor grapplers. You learn what you must do by rolling with good, solid sub grapplers. BJJ just provides the options.
You also don’t listen. On the other catch thread, several people including me pointed out that the rolling from the back kimura that Sak used is a commonly taught BJJ technique.
“Having superior position gives you superior control, just because you CAN control someone enough to land a sub from a bad position doesn’t make it a good idea.”
***AND HERE is the whole crux of the catch argument. You have been indoctrinated into the idea that only a certain limited number of positions can offer superior control - and therefore you think that other positions are “bad” - even if you can “somehow” manage to land a sub form there.
What you fail to understand and its due to your lack of mat time is that various positions do give you move control, and that control limits the things your opponent can do offensively. For example, when you have the mount, there aren’t many subs for the guy on the bottom. And, the ones that are there are more difficult to pull off and more high risk (if you fail, then it leaves your dick hangin out there). I’ve sub’ed guys who had my back, but that doesn’t make being back-mounted a “good” place to be; anyone if their right mind would rather have the situation reversed.
Using the Sak/Renzo fight as an example again - once Sak seized control of one of Renzo’s arms with two of his - and before he actually began to crank the double wristlock - he had superior control. Is this a “bad” position to be in?
You don’t understand the concepts of postition or control, and its because of your lack of mat time. Take the spider web, which is when you go for the straight arm bar from mount,and sit off to the side (you can also get it from guard too) and your partner locks his arms to prevent the sub. This isn’t one of your “flowchart” superior positions, yet it is recognized on BJJ as a very common situation. You are not pinning (except with your legs), your weight isn’t even on your partner, but you have control, and are part way to the sub – which is what gives you control since (and now pay attention) it limits what your partner can do offensively (as all he can do is defend). All good sub grapplers in BJJ recognize control outside of the hierarchy you talk about. It’s a part of BJJ. Same as what you talk about.
Catch breaks the BJJ rules (at times - and at other times there’s definitely overlap). But even though his back was turned to Renzo (a “bad” position in your estimation) - he nonetheless had control as soon as he secured the two-on-one…which really wasn’t that difficult to do. (And it was the same relative “position” as when he was being bear hugged from behind a moment earlier). Btw, Sak’s training vid is also excellent - and he demo’s/explains this very series of moves he used on Renzo as part of what he covers.
There are no BJJ rules, other than those for competition. I’ve seen BJJ people go for and get subs from inferior positions. This isn’t news. BJJ teaches you options. It teaches you technique, strategies, and tactics. How you use them is a personal choice, and it takes a lot of mat time and experience to develop your game, to learh which options work best for you. You can look at elite BJJ grapplers and fighters and see they are not carbon-copied, they don’t all grapple the same way, they don’t all follow some flowchart. What BJJ gives you options so that you can develop YOUR game.
As grappling has grown and evolved, so too has the options. BJJ is up-to-date and continuing to evolve and grow. What leads this growth are top-level grapplers, the Garcias, the Bravos, the Ribieros, and people like them. Guys that compete at the international level in sub grappling. Catch doesn’t have people at that level. It doesn’t have innovators since it doesn’t have people anywhere near the top of sub grappling.
The Boston Crab. The next big thing in MMA?
EDIT: I think this is the series that VP mentioned. And it’s significantly more recent. Unfortunately, not a whole lot to see in this promo clip:
YouTube - Fujiwara Submission Master Clinic
–Joe
He refuses to answer.
No BS Martial Arts - View Single Post - New here, thought I would say hey…
This was posted in 2005:
I’m doing wing chun for 30 years…teaching it for 20…spent 8 years as a direct student of Moy Yat…and the last 22 years as a direct student of William Cheung in Traditional Wing Chun (TWC) - a much different style than most wing chun systems…and I mix it with Catch-as-Catch-can wrestling…some boxing moves…some Muay Thai elbow and knee strikes from the clinch.
At least 2005. Then again if it is all dvd and books can that really be called training?
No, it does not you dumb Palaeocene mammal!! BJJ fundamentals are based on 1) passing the guard) and 2) having an effective guard (for defend and attack, or more precisely, counter-attack.) Once you understand these principles, it is up to you to decide how you want to play your jits.
You want to develop a top game, you can have it. You want to develop an aggressive guard game, you can have it. You want to butt-scoot and sub the fuck out of people, you can have that, too. Man, you want to be a sucky jits player, you can be that too.
There is no fucking mantra or dictate or over promote the guard. That’s just asinine.
No body denies that. It is you that is building a retarded argument to argue about. BJJ has sucky takedowns, and that is why many, if not most BJJ schools cross-train with wrestling (and to a lesser extend, Judo.) For fucks sake, look at your regular BJJ class and see who the majority of students are:
[hint for the retarded]
Wrestlers!!! Some competent, others with just a minimal exposure, but still, wrestlers.
Your argument that BJJ has sucky takedowns is as useful as saying Boxing has sucky kicks. That’s why people fucking crosstrain. Instead of generalizing crap you barely have a grasp on, spend more time training, or better yet, understand what you are supposedly training for.