Before you flame me, let me make it clear that I believe, at least generally speaking, that MARTIAL arts should in fact be martial. I am currently in the process of looking for a combat-oriented TKD school here in Salt Lake City and, despite the fact that there’s actually a school that advertises itself as a “combat Taekwondo” school, I have thus far been disappointed.
My point is this: Despite the fact that martial arts are MARTIAL arts, there are other reasons to study than to simply know how to fight. I hear the ATA get a lot of flack around here–and perhaps for good reason–but I actually enjoy watching XMA type stuff. Hell, I enjoy the shit out of it. I enjoy it in the same way that I enjoy watching gymnastics. There’s no denying that top XMA competitors are incredibly athletic and talented.
In fact, one thing that attracts me to something like TKD is specifically that there are SO MANY DIFFERENT ways to compete. I would like to find a TKD organization that has “sparring” divisions at tournaments that closely resemble a kickboxing tournament with minimal rules, but that doesn’t mean I won’t also enjoy competing in a forms competition.
So for me, I want to do both. I want to kick ass and train to fight, but that doesn’t mean I don’t also like showing off my tornado or 520 kicks.
With that said, the simple fact is that there are going to be a lot of people out there who don’t really care about fighting. It’s just not their thing. And honestly I don’t see any reason to criticize them for it any more than I see a reason to criticize someone for wanting to play hockey, or do ballet, or get into gymnastics.
Perhaps because people may confuse it with arts that are actually martial, which means that a real martial artist may be met with an attitude of “Oh, you do that flippy shit” – or a belief in the flippies that they are part of the same community. (There’s nothing wrong with the flippy community, of course – at least not a priori – but it’s not the same one.) Of course you should be able to shrug it off, but it could get sort of annoying, in much the same way that I (as a professional geek/programmer) get mildly annoyed with people who think they can “code” when they’ve mastered the basics of HTML markup.
Flippy shit! Yeah, I hear what you’re saying. I just don’t see the reason to constantly go out of your way (not necessarily YOUR way) to degrade a worthwhile activity that someone enjoys. Also, like I said, I’d like to be able to walk with one foot in one world and the other in the other. If I were to choose, I would definitely say that actually learning how to fight is the most important component for me, but like I said, I have a lot of fun doing spin kicks and flying through the air as well.
Do groups like the ATA even claim to teach self-defense? I figure by now they can no longer be under any illusions about exactly what they’re doing.
I do have to ask though, since you “admit” that there’s nothing wrong with wushu or XMA, why is it that when the subject of XMA itself comes up around here everyone is like “XMA ha ha ha! What bullshit!”? It seems to me people could just say, “Well it’s fun to watch (or fun to do) but it’s not about knowing how to fight.” You know, give it whatever props it has coming to it, and move on. As far as I know, XMA guys are aware that they’re crazy shit they do isn’t going to come in much handy on the street.
Really? You haven’t read enough threads or read what you want. I know for a FACT many people have gave it props for what it is on bullshido. Heck Errant, Maverick, and myself have done that in multiple threads.
Now, if you are upset at the caption threads well, you better go completely through them because all arts are insulted.
As far as I know, XMA guys are aware that they’re crazy shit they do isn’t going to come in much handy on the street.
You are making very wild assumptions. Have you talked to these TKDers or XMAers that you are sure don’t think they can fight?
I have and many think they can fight. Last one made sure to tell me how many Championships he won and I should be careful.
I was very careful. He didn’t last because, he didn’t like getting hit. I didn’t blame him I blamed his instructor for lying.
So, what you know isn’t what people have encountered.
But they are not aware of the fact that they would not be able to defend themselves on the street.
XMAists believe that what they do is the next step in the evolution of the martial arts. And yes i will admit that what they do is very athletic and takes alot of training.
But look at it from a realistic point. Don’t you think it would be better to spend your time working on perfecting basics than trying to do a kick that would NEVER be used in a SD situation?
Yes it would be cool to be able to do a 540 or even a 720 spin kick , but all it would be is something that you use to try and impress people who don’t know any better.
We had an XMA type stylist compete at a tournament a few years ago and they were a 2nd or 3rd dan (if memory serves me right). But anyway they did there kata and it was what you would expect …alot of flips and kicks and screaming. Needless to say they did not score well.
Afterwards some of us were standing around him and he was asked about his form…and he said it was a combination of kung fu, karate and TKD. But then he was asked about a section of the kata as to what the bunkai for it was and he looked like a deer in headlights.
When the term bunkai was explained to him he still had no idea what the moves he was doing were for.
And I’ll never forget what he said after that he said he may have to rethink this XMA stuff.
So if all you are wanting is to learn some moves to impress people then go ahead go for the flashy stuff. But if you want to really stand any chance on the street then go for the more simplistic types. Spend more time on the basics and leave the flashy stuff for the movies.
Maybe you’re right and I haven’t read enough threads. I just found this forum yesterday but have done as much reading as I can in 24 hours. Since XMA is an ATA thing from what I understand, most of what I’ve gathered as far as the general consensus of opinion is in the “ATA Megathread.” I’m probably about halfway through it but actually left that thread to post this because it’s just page after page of negativity. I have also seen a number of other threads where any type of flashy technique is laughed at and insulted, as if no one can recognize that maybe such a maneuver does have value . . . just not for fighting.
Well I did admit that I basically WAS assuming. With that said, I will also point out that “self defense” and competitive fighting are two different things. When it comes to self defense, you generally are not going up against a trained opponent. So I would probably be willing to bet that the better of the ATA trained practitioners will PROBABLY fare better in a street situation than they would if they had no training at all.
Like I said, even though it does seem hard for some people to believe, not everyone who is involved in MA (especially TKD) are only concerned about their ability to defend themselves. For some, it’s just something they enjoy doing. Consider this: Unless you go looking for a fight, how many self-defense situations do you realistically expect to encounter in your lifetime? The last time I was in a serious fight was over 10 years ago. (I was in high school.) So some people may not see the value in training continuously for a fight that may very well never happen. However, forms competition is something that they can do for as long as tournaments are offered.
It’s just another focus. As I alluded in my previous post, I think the best way to look at it is just as you would look at any other non-combat oriented activity, like gymnastics, lacross, football, bowling, etc.
ATA teaches a lot of Krav Maga under KMWW. Some good , some bad but there are plenty of very good ATA places in terms of SD because they are teaching KM certified through KMWW. Cant speak for there TKD stuff.
Well I did admit that I basically WAS assuming.
No, you actually said
As far as I know, XMA guys are aware that they’re crazy shit they do isn’t going to come in much handy on the street.
This implies you may have encountered someone.
With that said, I will also point out that “self defense” and competitive fighting are two different things. When it comes to self defense, you generally are not going up against a trained opponent. So I would probably be willing to bet that the better of the ATA trained practitioners will PROBABLY fare better in a street situation than they would if they had no training at all.
Why point it out? That has nothing to do with flashy techniques vs fighting. What you are doing now is called creating a Starwman.
I agree with you on thi pint…BUT none of those sports try to tell you that by doing it you will be able to defend yourself with skills learned from them.
Thats where the whole XMA thing goes askew. They are taught a bunch of impratical things and told that they can be used in a practical sense.
And the whole " We are the evolution of MA" thing just gets on my nerves personally.
So some people may not see the value in training continuously for a fight that may very well never happen. However, forms competition is something that they can do for as long as tournaments are offered.
True most people may never get into a real fight but in todays society where preying on the fears that a mugger/rapist lays in wait around every corner , don’t you think that it would be best to have legitimite skills to draw upon?
And yes forms are useful ( ducks as things are thrown at my head) …Not so much in teaching you to fight but by giving you a means to continue to practise later on in life…
Well excuse me, my lord! kneels in defeat, head bowed But I was making an assumption based on common sense.
I’m not creating anything. My point with that is that even though you basically said that ATA TKD = NO SELF DEFENSE, I was just saying that in a self-defense situation against an untrained attacker a trained ATA guy might find that his training and skills are worth something rather than nothing. This, of course, is a general statement about ATA TKD as a whole and not just the flashy elements.
I’m not going to touch the common sense comment because, that isn’t true. Many people with loads of common sense make mistakes. That is why frauds like Frank Dux, Ashida Kim and other hucksters get rich.
I’m not creating anything. My point with that is that even though you basically said that ATA TKD = NO SELF DEFENSE
Don’t put words in my mouth.
You implied ATA is flashy. There is good ATA and bad ATA. There is good Krav and bad Krav.
Here is the question you asked:
What’s so wrong about flashy TKD?
I hear the ATA get a lot of flack around here–and perhaps for good reason–but I actually enjoy watching XMA type stuff. Hell, I enjoy the shit out of it. I enjoy it in the same way that I enjoy watching gymnastics. There’s no denying that top XMA competitors are incredibly athletic and talented.
You likened it to XMA not me.
I responded with “absolutely nothing.” Right here you are talking about Flashy ATA non-self defense oriented schools.
As far as I know, XMA guys are aware that they’re crazy shit they do isn’t going to come in much handy on the street.
Again this is you. We gave you some instances as to why XMA, Wushu, and schools of that nature get shit.
Now, if you are looking for validation, you won’t get it on bullshdio. Train what you want and enjoy it.
Point taken. If they think that XMA moves are going to help them in a fight then they need to be brought back down to earth. I do think it’s cool to watch though and when I get the chance I enjoy practicing some flashy techniques myself. I’ve been out of training for a while (like . . . years), but I still think I have better kicks than the average TKD fighter. My stuff is nothing compared to the XMA guys though. Truth be told I’m kind of jealous.
Yes, I do think the ability to beat someone’s ass when necessary should be the primary focus of martial arts. I’m just saying that it doesn’t have to be the only focus.
I think that’s a good point. As a matter of fact, I visited a TKD school when I was in Minnesota and had a sit down with the instructor. It was kind of a weird school. Apparently they were somehow affiliated with Chuck Norris and he helped create their brand of TKD, which was a sort of updated version of traditional TKD where they used boxing-style handwork and other such things.
Anyway, he showed me some of the sparring from a competition they had and it didn’t look terrible. It was continuous and hand and foot strikes were allowed to the face . . . kind of reminded me of an American kickboxing match actually. I did mention to the guy though that it wasn’t as “hardcore” as MMA and he said, “Yeah, but those guys are going to suffer many injuries through their careers and once they hit middle age they are done. Then they have to live with their sore bodies for the rest of their lives. I can do this for as long as I want to and feel good the whole time.” I thought it was a legitimate point.
My stuff is nothing compared to the XMA guys though. Truth be told I’m kind of jealous.
Take a gymnastics class…it will help.
Yes, I do think the ability to beat someone’s ass when necessary should be the primary focus of martial arts. I’m just saying that it doesn’t have to be the only focus.
never said it had to be the only focus just a viable part of the training. If your looking to learn to fight then learn from someone that can fight not just pretend while doing backflips.
Anyway, he showed me some of the sparring from a competition they had and it didn’t look terrible. It was continuous and hand and foot strikes were allowed to the face . . . kind of reminded me of an American kickboxing match actually. I did mention to the guy though that it wasn’t as “hardcore” as MMA and he said, “Yeah, but those guys are going to suffer many injuries through their careers and once they hit middle age they are done. Then they have to live with their sore bodies for the rest of their lives. I can do this for as long as I want to and feel good the whole time.” I thought it was a legitimate point
Word. I had some Ashida books when I was younger. (Ninja Mind Control!) I also had Dux’s “The Secret Man.” Of course, I was like 14 then. Bloodsport is still my favorite movie of all time though.
Hey, it’s all good. No need to get defensive. I come to message boards for good discussions and not to get into arguments. Just give me the benefit of the doubt and I’ll do the same.
Interesting comment. I think you’ll have to agree with me–uh oh! here I go assuming again!–that the vast majority of comments on here pretty much say that ATA as a whole is just overwhelmingly bad. I think “useless” is also a word I have encountered pretty regularly. Hell, as a matter of fact, I lost count of the number of times that TKD entirely has been referred to as a useless martial art.
I likened what to XMA? ATA? Well XMA is an ATA thing right?
Umm . . . maybe. Or really just the practice to specifically focus on perfecting moves for demonstrational purposes. I mean, it’s not really out of the question that a school could focus on doing both.
I have no problem saying that if they are teaching such things AS self-defense then that’s a problem. If they are teaching it (or practicing it) as just a cool thing to do then that’s all good.
Nah, no validation necessary. I am not a practitioner of anything right now but my most recent formal training was actually in judo. (Was in for 6 months before I injured my back during practice and it still hasn’t healed 2 years later.)
When I was a kid I actually taught myself to do a back handspring (and can still to it today). Truth be told, leaping into the air and allowing my body to turn upside down scares the shit out me. I like doing the kicks but I’ll probably have to leave the flips alone.
When I was a kid I actually taught myself to do a back handspring (and can still to it today). Truth be told, leaping into the air and allowing my body to turn upside down scares the shit out me. I like doing the kicks but I’ll probably have to leave the flips alone.
Nah, no validation necessary. I am not a practitioner of anything right now but my most recent formal training was actually in judo. (Was in for 6 months before I injured my back during practice and it still hasn’t healed 2 years later.)
Ok not to sound like a Dick but how can you do a backspring if your back still is not healed.