Watchman said he isn't but he is going to anyway

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Trollshido
1

[QUOTE=Phrost;2625615]
I’m not going to get into a discussion on the merits or horrors (depending on your personal point of view) of corporal punishment/spanking. That’s because in this case, it’s flat-out irrelevant. Whether or not you agree with it, a spanking is a tool used to provide moderate, non-injuring, negative reinforcement to a child. Full disclosure: I was spanked as a child, even occasionally paddled with a board specifically crafted for that purpose, both at home and in public school in Texas. I don’t spank my own child.
[/QUOTE]

Well said and I won’t get into said debate either, but spanking is not negative reinforcement. It would have to involve the removal of an aversive stimulus in order to be negative reinforcement, and the point would be, by definition, to reinforce a desired behavior. Spanking is punishment, which is the introduction of an aversive stimulus in order to decrease an undesired behavior.

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[QUOTE=watchman;2634168]Well said and I won’t get into said debate either, but spanking is not negative reinforcement. It would have to involve the removal of an aversive stimulus in order to be negative reinforcement, and the point would be, by definition, to reinforce a desired behavior. Spanking is punishment, which is the introduction of an aversive stimulus in order to decrease an undesired behavior.[/QUOTE]

Thanks but no one is debating behavior modification and the difference between reinforcement and punishment. But it is kind of funny how you said you won’t get into the debate and then proceeded right into it!

3

How exactly did I get right into the debate about whether it is right to spank children? I think you need to reread my post.

4

[QUOTE=watchman;2634223]How exactly did I get right into the debate about whether it is right to spank children? I think you need to reread my post.[/QUOTE]

So then what exactly is your point? This thread is about the Douche bag that went way beyond what should be acceptable punishment. No one is debating whether spanking is negative reinforcement or not. You missed the entire point of the thread and decided to pick apart irrelevant parts of the OP.

5

[QUOTE=watchman;2634223]How exactly did I get right into the debate about whether it is right to spank children? [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=watchman;2634168]spanking is not negative reinforcement…blahblahblah argument blahblahblah[/QUOTE]

//youtu.be/X8PyTo6NyXA

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Me: Spanking is actually punishment, not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is something else.

W. Rabbit: But if I imagine your post contains a bunch of stuff it doesn’t, it is easy to show you are a hypocrite!

Me: ?

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[QUOTE=watchman;2634238]Me: Spanking is actually punishment, not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is something else.
[/QUOTE]

False dichotomy.

[QUOTE=watchman;2634238]
W. Rabbit: But if I imagine your post contains a bunch of stuff it doesn’t, it is easy to show you are a hypocrite!

Me: ?[/QUOTE]

Notice how my post contains no prose of my own, but your own words and a clip of Vader kicking his own son’s ass down a chute.

Boy, talk about over your head.

8
  1. You either don’t know what dichotomy means or don’t know how to apply the idea in this case. I wasn’t “creating” anything, least of all a dichotomy. I’m sorry that saying one term doesn’t mean what you think it means made your butt hurt so much.
  2. Notice how your post adds “argument” instead of my own words, because there is no “argument” in my post. I think that’s called “projection.”
  3. The video is not an argument. Or a fact. Or relevant.

Keep using big fonts to compensate, I’m sure nobody notices.

9

You see…Darth Vader is an evil bastard, but he loves his son. He only recently found out his son is alive, so he’s pretty stoked.

So Vader…a humble civil servant of the law…driven by duty, love, and the drunken thirst for rage known as the Dark Side, proceeds to burn a path of destruction across the galaxy looking for his boy.

When they finally meet…Vader’s first impulse is naturally to insult Luke. “You’ve got my hair, but what a skinny ass little bitch you are”, says Vader. Luke, feeling a bit put out, proceeds to defend himself.

See, Vader has a dream: to freeze his chickenshit, anarchist son in compressed gas so that that he can both appease his boss, and discipline Luke in Vader’s vision, which essentially means turning Luke into a cold killing machine and eliminating all opposition to the Imperial government.

Now, talk about tough love, we have a Dark Lord who wants his blonde haired blue eyed little angel to become a Dark Lord. And, through some pretty brutal “discipline” he intends to mold little Luke in his image (unintentionally? confused/muddled by the Dark Side?).

Why? Because the Emperor tortured Anakin into becoming Vader. Years of psychological abuse fused by the physical abuse of encasing Anakin’s dying body in the vicious machination of Vader.

What a great metaphor for how victims of abuse can become abusers themselves.

How?

The negative reinforcement of unearned abuse.

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[QUOTE=watchman;2634244]1. You either don’t know what dichotomy means or don’t know how to apply the idea in this case. I wasn’t “creating” anything, least of all a dichotomy. I’m sorry that saying one term doesn’t mean what you think it means made your butt hurt so much.
[/QUOTE]

No you’re just wrong. Spanking can be both punishment and negative reinforcement. Use your brain.

[QUOTE=watchman;2634244]
2. Notice how your post adds “argument” instead of my own words, because there is no “argument” in my post. I think that’s called “projection.”
[/QUOTE]

You posted an argument. It was a wrong argument.

[QUOTE=watchman;2634244]
3. The video is not an argument. Or a fact. Or relevant.
[/QUOTE]

Oh it is quite relevant, as I said already, it went over your head.

[QUOTE=watchman;2634244]
Keep using big fonts to compensate, I’m sure nobody notices.[/QUOTE]

Neither Logic nor B.F.Skinner was working on you so I had to try more pixels. That didn’t work either.

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Watchman is technically correct, but his point is totally irrelevant because it does not affect Judge William Adams douchebaggery.

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[QUOTE=DCS;2634304]Watchman is technically correct, but his point is totally irrelevant because it does not affect Judge William Adams douchebaggery.[/QUOTE]

He’s not correct, because spanking has been used in both examples of punishment as well as negative reinforcement since Skinner created these terms.

I had this thoroughly explained to me by my college psych professor once after getting it all ass backwards on a test about behavioral conditioning. I was confused about the proactive vs. reactive types of reinforcement, which is what we’re talking about.

It’s easy to see spanking as a punishment reinforcement. Your kid does something, you spank, they stop. This is Punishment Reinforcement, the spanking serves to remove the behavior that has already occurred.

But, spanking and beating (or threats of that) are also negative reinforcement when used to strengthen future behaviors (intentional or unintentional).

An example of intentional is “do the dishes or I bring out the whip again”. Kid does dishes to avoid pain. This is identical to Skinner’s rat experiments where he coined “Negative Reinforcement”. Rat enters electrified cage, and must learn to step on a bar to stop the pain.

There can be unintentionally strengthened behaviors from using beating as punishment/negative reinforcer, such as abusive behavior itself. This is why the abused often become abusers, it’s also behavioral conditioning. Whether they hit because their kid did something or they threaten their kids with beating to, say, get them off the computer…

But as YOU said DCS arguing Skinner at all (as Watchman did) is academic because rats in cages are not children being beaten, and in domestic abuse, beatings/spankings are used as both punishment and negative reinforcement. There are so many examples that come to mind.

In abusive homes, behavior is often both punished, as well as negatively reinforced by promises of suppressing the beating/spanking. Hence, the false dichotomy of spanking being either-or. You can see it happening in the Judge video too…he’ punishing her for current behavior but also telling her that future beatings will stop if she shapes up.

Having personally taken a steel toe boot to the neck for similar things (spending “too much” time on a computer), I can relate.

That should end this bickering over Skinner, and yes remember, I did not bring it up first.

:TrollDad:

13

Simply put, if you aren’t going to get into a debate then don’t make a correction of another person’s words. Yes, that causes a debate.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=110559

14

[QUOTE=watchman;2634168]Well said and I won’t get into said debate either, but spanking is not negative reinforcement. It would have to involve the removal of an aversive stimulus in order to be negative reinforcement, and the point would be, by definition, to reinforce a desired behavior. Spanking is punishment, which is the introduction of an aversive stimulus in order to decrease an undesired behavior.[/QUOTE]Well let’s end this right now. You are absolutely right. Most people misunderstand what negative reinforcement is and usually associate it with the layman’s definition of it.

If you want to get into a full discussion of it we can also take the approach of negative stimuli reinforcing positive reinforcement, or the absent of stimuli actually being a motive itself. Just saying. This is a martial arts forum, let’s keep the basic psychology out of it. There is an off topic forum though.

15

[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2634537]He’s not correct, because spanking has been used in both examples of punishment as well as negative reinforcement since Skinner created these terms.

I had this thoroughly explained to me by my college psych professor once after getting it all ass backwards on a test about behavioral conditioning. I was confused about the proactive vs. reactive types of reinforcement, which is what we’re talking about.

It’s easy to see spanking as a punishment reinforcement. Your kid does something, you spank, they stop. This is Punishment Reinforcement, the spanking serves to remove the behavior that has already occurred.

But, spanking and beating (or threats of that) are also negative reinforcement when used to strengthen future behaviors (intentional or unintentional).

An example of intentional is “do the dishes or I bring out the whip again”. Kid does dishes to avoid pain. This is identical to Skinner’s rat experiments where he coined “Negative Reinforcement”. Rat enters electrified cage, and must learn to step on a bar to stop the pain.

There can be unintentionally strengthened behaviors from using beating as punishment/negative reinforcer, such as abusive behavior itself. This is why the abused often become abusers, it’s also behavioral conditioning. Whether they hit because their kid did something or they threaten their kids with beating to, say, get them off the computer…

But as YOU said DCS arguing Skinner at all (as Watchman did) is academic because rats in cages are not children being beaten, and in domestic abuse, beatings/spankings are used as both punishment and negative reinforcement. There are so many examples that come to mind.

In abusive homes, behavior is often both punished, as well as negatively reinforced by promises of suppressing the beating/spanking. Hence, the false dichotomy of spanking being either-or. You can see it happening in the Judge video too…he’ punishing her for current behavior but also telling her that future beatings will stop if she shapes up.

Having personally taken a steel toe boot to the neck for similar things (spending “too much” time on a computer), I can relate.

That should end this bickering over Skinner, and yes remember, I did not bring it up first.

:TrollDad:[/QUOTE]
And you are correct too. I put my response before I read yours. It was this discussion that I didn’t think needed further examination. That being said, psychology is a hobby of mine as that was my major in college. Skinner’s initial experiments have been played with in society since those days, especially in the cases of early childhood development. Since I still teach younger children I have to always be aware of what parents are fed today so I can communicate better with them.

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[QUOTE=Omega Supreme;2634568]
If you want to get into a full discussion of it we can also take the approach of negative stimuli reinforcing positive reinforcement, or the absent of stimuli actually being a motive itself. Just saying. This is a martial arts forum, let’s keep the basic psychology out of it. There is an off topic forum though.[/QUOTE]I would’ve thought basic psychology is entirely relevant to Martial Arts. The whole field of sports psychology for one example, so i wouldn’t say it was entirely off topic.

But then again, could we construe that as ‘basic’…?

…

Well folks, what we have on the horizon, is a salutary lesson in negative reinforcement / Punishment when Omega threatens me with a beating for making pedantic posts…

At least this is in Trollshido and… ZOMG!! LOOK THERE’S ELVIS!! OVER THERE!!!

Runs like hell

17

My take was the relationship between Punishment reinforcement and Negative Reinforcement in domestic abuse is often seen as a vicious cycle, how beatings are use both to reactively Punish

“ah, caught you on the damn computer again you little bitch…SLAVE!..bring me the whip”
with proactively threatening the abuse (negative reinforcement)

“if you catch you on that fucking computer again…downloadin themz m3ps…you get my big ol’ Texas Belt…now go make yourself more puuurty”
and of course in many situations like that, the kid gets beat anyway, and this can lead to reciprocal abuse without the proper intervention.