your right about that l took my number two son to a kou shou tournement . he was about nine. as its good luck to have a young one in a kwoon they had him do a form . he did sup ji to start the first day of the tournement . they were so surprised to see someone so young he got lots of pats on the back. one was lee koon hung from h.k. of the kwun tung martial arts association . with him was to very old haaka who were teachers. as they were freinds of my si-gung nam ging we spent some time with me and my son. they told of how it was for the best in china to get out during the cultural revolution. they said to me roughly that when they put to-gether wu shu they had a problem finding any old timers that were kind of the best of the best. so they had to pick from what was still there. an example when clc went south he took three indoor disciples chan dor in nyc, nam ging who became president of our boxing association , and one other that l cant remember. through them l met some others at the tournement who were in there 70s and 80s . they were all from mainland china. if l were to start again l would go to taiwan and search there. l understood there was apak mei guy there in the 60s that was a bit grough but a helluva fighter. l think now its harder to find this quaulity . one who has had to use it and they dont just teach what they have been told but what they know from experience. l saw mine fight for real against a clf guy who was taller and bigger so l became a pain in the ass till he agreed to teach me. in my day if you couldnt fight youd have no students for long. sorry didnt mean to write a book must be old age .
Lee, did you ever come across any good traditional “Shaolin” people? Anyone you’ve seen fight?
l met two from hung style one was one of lum sai wings disciples . he had some of the most amazing pictures of his bi ci . another who did internal styles , l knew his number 5 wife. back then siu lum ji was applied to a lot of styles . l think probably most couldnt go back to far in lineage. reason being that most old timer couldnt write that well . so they would claim to be from the temple. family connections to chinese is very important. so l cant say they were specificaly doing whats refered to as siu lum ji to-day. but l have been lucky enough to meet some pretty amazing old guys. like one of jow fooks disciples another from the lee village where hung was the village style . there all my age or older and still teaching. l also met jow fook before he died it saddens me sometimes to see whats happened to the arts. and also angers me .
I see what you mean by lack of written records. Most of what I’ve learned is supposed to be “Shaolin” both northern and southern. I don’t know if we’d ever know with 100% accuracy. I do know however, that what the modern monks are doing is not traditional.
a long time ago l asked my sifu about siu lum ji and kung fu . if l remember right he said. siu lum ji got the reputation for fighting by styles who couldnt remember a long history. as they are budhuist which is non violent the truth be known they would be for the most part against it. but who wasnt were the taoist who developed styles which were effective not meant to be excercise . when l started styles were broken up into square , circle ,triangle and combinations of . then excercise , effectiveness, for example tai chi would be a larger percentage excercise and pak mei fighting only . this is the way sifu described chinese martial arts. he also said the real monks are long dead. l have a video from china about the last of the old abbots its a documentry he is dead now.
Sound like you were fortunate to find a real instructor. It is rare to find someone who knows the subtle differences in fighting and exercises.
yes l have been told by others in the pak mei community (cheung bing lams association ) how lucky l was. particularly starting at a time before the name became well know . now l have seen some l dont recognize and its not all in north america. my sifu used to say there were more fakes in china than in north america.l was also lucky his sifu was ng nam ging who was a indoor disciple of cheung lai cheun .
See, I’ve tried to tell people this and they scoff. I agree that Americans made MA all about money and commercialism. Yet, I feel there are just as many false masters, if not more, in Asian countries. I always point out the fact that they make fun of charlatans in their movies way before the kung fu boom in America.
l used to import in the 60s from h.k. to north america . some were books about martial arts. probably 50 per cent or more were fakes. it took some research into what was real . not only did they sell in north america but even more in china. l also had a book which showed tricks for a teacher to do to impress the public. likeputting you hands in boiling oil and pick up a coin, making spirits appear lol in h.k. there was a market where oils and medicine were sold and these guys used this kind of stuff all the time. l sold oil in mainland china they were more crooks than you could count.
Wow. That is very interesting. I have a few old books that I was using to check my crap style. I honestly think many of our forms came from books. If upwards of 50% may have been fake that explains more than you can imagine.
l remember about 20 years ago we had a guy from h.k. teaching hung style claimed to be a movie star. a freind of mine met the guy who was said to be his teacher in h.k. . so he went in to look around and tell them about his famous student . hed never heard of him and had no students except in his area. turned out he learned from books and videos hense forms done left handed instead of right . hes gone now word got out quick in a chinese community.
Ha HA. I wish it worked as well here in the US. Charlatans make huge amounts of money learning from videos and books. Then they tie themselves to weird masters and next thing you know they are making millions.
l have seen some usingmy styles name and other wierd names. in some cases they have japanes terms mixed with cantonese and manderin . one should always be more carefull. kind of like buying a 60s chev big block with two fours ,cam four speed and believing it was only driven to church on sunday buy a little old lady.
You know you could do me a favor. Since you have a good connection to Pak Mei lineage.
After my departure from a Mcdojo with Bullshido, I’ve been studying and researching Xingyi. Anyway, there is a gentleman named Peter Pena.
Your style is something I’ve always wanted to study but, never had the chance. Now, I’m more leery of anyone claiming knowledge in CMA.
l will be back in a bit
well i wasn’t saying that shaolin kung fu doesn’t exist anymore, just that the shaolin temple doesn’t exist like it used to… that’s all
i think at one point, we all had romantic notions that we could go to china, climb a mountain and learn the “real” shaolin from monks.
turns out there’s better training here in nyc. go figure.
Yep. That is also how I got suckered. There is good training away from Shaolin and most is better.
You still have to be wary. When I was looking for Shaolin there was nothing on the inernet. Imagine doing a search on Shaolin and only getting 90 hits. I think that is what many people don’t understand about the McDojo craze. Info wasn’t out there to read.
as to peter pena l have no info as to him. heard the name before thats all. sounds philipino . l have a list of sifus recognized by cheung bing lam association hes not on it. as to nyc you have the best cheung lai cheun turned out along with nam ging and the third l cant remember. if youwant to learn pak mei try to find one of chan dors student whos teaching. chan dor was one of the best or he may be the best. l talked in the past to one of his relatives but cant remember his disciple that is teaching. you also have a pretty good teacher of lung ying l understand in nyc.
Very interesting he claims lineage through Master Kwong Man Fong in NYC.
http://www.freewebs.com/southernfistclub/abouttheinstructor.htm
I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
I have to leave for awhile.
Thanks for your time.
That I agree with you 100%. The Shaolin temple in Henan provence was destroyed in the 1640’s, what happened after that? Who knows. It would stand to reason that survivors and others trained in but not necessarily at the temple at the time, could have went to south China to avoid Manchurian entanglement.
My “Shaolin” training comes to me through a gentleman known as Feeman Ong, whom according to him was initially trained at the temple in Fukien from about age 7 to 15, then he went to the United States, then continuing to travel to Taiwan to train under other various teachers.