I thought you might say that.
How many people on the battlefield are going to cause you to need a guard pass? I’m a bit confused about the logic that a soldier needs to drill a way to pass the guard of someone who can’t even do a triangle.
You are looking at the world as if we are the only country that understands grappling. The rest of the world is catching up and you forget that Judo is teh worlds #2 sport. The triangle isn’t some kind of USA/Brazil-only thing.
And honestly nobody really thinks that the soldiers of today are getting into a lot of hand-to-hand fights. BUT if they do get into some shit I don’t want crappy training methods. I want our soldiers to have the best possible training. The Gracie Gift should not be in the curriculum.
FYI guess. There are numerous Close Quarters engagements in Iraq and Afghanistan so this training does come into play.
I would actually recommend Greg Thompson’s book on Combatives to better see what it is we do.
Actaully though, most of the reports i hvae heard ior read stated the soldiers did a takedown, the other guy did wrap the legs, the soldier basically did ground and pouond. the guy then opened his legs and the soldier went to mount. there is no real passing that is going to happen. So what does it matter? the basic idea we give soldiers is that they get to a dominate position to finish the fight with strikes or submission.
There is some H2H going on btw. Think about it, the guys are over there clearing rooms or doing police type work. It is not the biggest concern but it does happen
Plus, it is more of the attutude they get during combatives training that is most important
There have been more than that. One I recall the insurgent was trying to bite the soldier from the “guard.” The soldier jammed his for arm into the insrurgents mouth, passed the guard, then beat the crap out of him.
There is some H2H going on btw. Think about it, the guys are over there clearing rooms or doing police type work. It is not the biggest concern but it does happen
There is a lot of close quarters work going on. You never know who is there when you kick in a door and turn a corner. Thats why combatives is part of the warrior tasks.
Plus, it is more of the attutude they get during combatives training that is most important
Correct. It instills the willingness to close and engage the enemy. It does a GREAT job of doing that. I’ve seen some timid soldiers got through Combatives training, take a shine to it, then apply that attitude to the rest of their training.
Assuming you were addressing me, I don’t think that the triangle doesnt exist outside USA or Brazil - hell, I’m from Ireland and the triangle is my most frequent sub - what I was trying to point out was the missing steps in logic between teaching soldiers to pass the guard, then saying they don’t need to worry about getting triangled.
If you’re operating under the assumption a soldier needs a decent guard pass, it follows that the person who’s guard he’s trying to pass might know what a triangle is.
Moose, your logic is correct but the soldier doesn’t need a decent guard pass( that is my point). If they happen to develop one then good, but do they need it?
I teach combatives to the army, but at my school I don’t teach that pass to civilians. Soldiers should know it becasue it is one of the core 18 moves. That is it. It is more important know the basic idea of passing to get on top
Hmm I see your point. I still think that if you’re going to teach a guard pass you might as well teach a safer option but I can appreciate being in the position of having to teach the approved curriculum.
-I agree and with Yrkoon9 that the Gracie gift should not be in the curriculum. If I taught a BJJ beginner class, Thompson’s book would practically be my textbook/curriculum guide and recommended to every student. The Gracie gift is in there, but that is about the only thing I would omit.
Regarding a soldier getting caught in a triangle in the line of duty…
Combatives Saves Lives:
In the back of a helicopter flying at 9,000 feet over a dark, remote area of Afghanistan is probably the last place you would expect to see hand-to-hand combat. But that’s exactly what happened one night in early 2002, and everyone lived to tell about it because of the actions of one well-trained soldier.
During an early phase of the war in Afghanistan, while the wreckage of the World Trade Center in New York was still smoldering, a Special Forces team placed 15 Taliban prisoners in the back of a CH-47 Chinook helicopter for transportation to American-controlled territory. The Chinook is a large dual-rotor, heavy-lift helicopter, the kind often seen on the news carrying U.S. troops. For this short trip, the prisoners’ hands were bound in front of them and at the time it was determined that only one guard would be needed to watch over them.
But a few minutes into the nighttime flight, with the prisoners seemingly docile and with thousands of feet of elevation making escape unlikely, the guard, who was watching the prisoners through night-vision goggles-which offer a very restricted peripheral field of view-inadvertently turned his back on one of the prisoners seated near him.
In the moment it took for the guard to lose sight of him, the prisoner grabbed him with his legs in a triangle-like choke and began to squeeze. The combination of the helicopter’s deafening noise and the guard’s constricted movement made it impossible for him to signal for help. But an alert door gunner turned and saw the commotion through his own night-vision goggles and moved to help.
[B][SIZE=3]Fall of Death
[/SIZE][/B]The gunner, who had been trained in basic hand-to-hand fighting skills as part of the Modern Army Combatives Program, was tethered to the aircraft with a harness designed to catch him if he fell out, but he applied the rear naked choke from his position behind the prisoner, pulling the attacker and his victim back from the open ramp and the certain death of a fall.
As he was choking the prisoner, the gunner backed into a second Taliban who dug his teeth into the gunner’s backside in an attempt to assist his compatriot. Enduring the pain from the second prisoner’s tooth-hold, the door gunner continued to apply pressure on the choke until the first prisoner released the guard. He then struck him in the face with downward elbows, driving him to the floor of the helicopter, where the guard was able to control him long enough to more securely bind him.
No shot was ever fired, and there was no fiery crash, because of the actions of that aviation crewmember, who reacted with his wits, using fundamental maneuvers he learned at the Army’s Combatives School.
We had a a level one combatives class a few months back. The person teaching it was a new lieutenant who became certified during OBC. He asked me to assist him giving the class. We both reviewd the combatives video together, the same one linked to in this thread. I pointed out the flaw in the guard pass, but he just said we have to do it the Army way.
If you listen to the guy giving the intro in the video, he says that the winner is the guy who’s buddy shows up with a gun. The level one class is supposed to be just a confidence builder. In the end though, it’s not very likely that an enemy combatant is going to know how to exploint an one arm guard pass, or even use a guard defense at all.
This wikipedia article explains the goals very well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Army_Combatives_School
They basically know that you only have a limited amount of time to teach a combatives class. The first class gives you basic drills that you can perform and gain a foundation for the more advanced levels.
In the end though, it’s not very likely that an enemy combatant is going to know how to exploint an one arm guard pass, or even use a guard defense at all.
Well yeah, and I’m really just repeating myself here but - in that case, why teach a guard pass at all? If you’re going to teach a guard pass, teach a safe one. I just dont get this logic that you’re going to teach a way to pass the guard, but it doesn’t matter that you triangle yourself in doing it, because you’re opponent won’t know how to use the guard… even though you apparently need a guard pass.
I completely agree with what you’re saying about “The winner is who’s buddy turns up first with a gun” but if the course is just for confidence building why not teach them a pass which isn’t going to result in getting triangled over and over the first time they roll with someone who knows a triangle?
I’ll shut up now.
You missed the point entirely.
The point is that soldiers should not be learning flawed/weak training methods or techniques. Because thier lives may depend on it. And i’ve gone through this one before. The Gracie Gift is fucking shamefull.
I totally agree with you Das. The first thing I pointed out to my LT was the bad technique behind the guard pass. I was just making the point that the leve 1 class is structured as a foundation setter. If you see a couple of the more advanced classes or just search for an Army combatives tournament video, those guys would’ve never gotten to where they are using a crappy guard pass. It’s just what they learned in order to get an idea of what a “guard” and “guard pass” are.
We’re one the same page in therms of teaching things right if you’re going to teach anything at all. But hey, like my LT said, that’s the army way.
I haven’t heard of the Gracie Gift (3G) guard pass. The pass I’ve learned that is the single leg pass like the one in the video starts from posture, not from bicep control. It is effective to me starting from posture. The one in the video looks a lot more like a triangle escape, with putting yourself in a triangle first. It sure as hell isn’t easy starting from a stretched out position in a triangle like that to pull someone into you, posture up on knees, build a frame, then escape - especially if they are pulling down on your head, like the video doesn’t show.
Do the Gracies really teach the single leg pass like that?
Yes, they do. The Army designed their modern combatives program under the instruction of the Gracies themselves.
My understanding from my different army friends, the US military doesn’t put a lot of effort into training US soldiers in Combatives. I find it even more interesting that the Gracies teach basic level stuff, but then(at least from what I understand) Duane Dieter teaches most of the SpecOps groups in CQD… I was really shocked when I found out that the US Army doesn’t even issue bayonets any more.
I compare this with my two other main experiencs. In Israel everyone used to learn KM(until Imi died, and KM headquarters moved to the US, now they do a BJJ/KM/MT mix called hagannah). However soldiers are issued wavers to train for free in government gyms up to BB level.
Then you have Russia where they still go by General Suvorov’s axiom(not to be confused with the traitor who called himself suvorov), “Bullets are for the fool, the bayonet is for the good guy.” In other words close fast and take to H2H.
i liked the video. but ive never liked that gracie gift guard pass…so thats what its called
thats one of the most time waisting and annoying moves to learn in the course. combatives is supposed to be fairly simple…im still a noob at crappling…but they coulda had a more simple technique. otherwise from that
i didnt know that some of the BJJers here liked thier bastard child combatives. it helps alot when a BJJer shows up to help instruct or a combatives instructor has a BJJ / grappling background.
it depends on what type of unit your at an where your stationed as to how much effort goes into combatives training.
the army not issuing bayonets anymore pissed me off too…but oddly…they teach bayonet fighting in warrior transition school and level 3 …wtf
if we ever fight a russian…who most likely is gonna be a sambo killer…for example, an u get into a H2H situation…that gracie gift pass is a set up for failure
contrary to popular belief …terrorists, and other foriegn militaries who are possible enemies grapple, crapple, & strike too.
The arm in guard pass does not teach good guard passing. They may say it teaches good fundamentals, but then why would it get you caught in a triangle? This is akin to teaching a boxer to loop his hooks very wide like a haymaker, so they will understand the “principles” of a good hook. Why not just do the hook?
Level 1 is a foundation for more advanced learning “down the road.” As such, certain things must be in place to facilitate others.
The Level 1 guard pass is crap, folks are taught how to do it, and how to do it (somewhat) effectively. Try to remember, if you please, our enemies are not trained BJJ grapplers, but malnourished, understrength conscripts. I suspect the Level 1 guard pass will work just fine against that type of opponent.
In Level 2, an additional 4 or 5 (I forget how many) guard passes are taught. These are what is primarily relied upon, but the Level 1 guard pass sets up a wordless explanation of why they are better…
Think outside the dojo, outside the ring, and outside what you think you know about the military when critiquing the Combatives program. It fits what it’s needed for far more than adequately.
Enjoy.