Hello all, I know it is not necessarily safe to give Bruce an outlet, but I felt compelled to start this new thread. What I would like it to be is a dialogue of Christian theology and not a flame war of religions or trolling of Christians. All I can do is ask. I know you do not have to listen or follow my request. This thread is in Trollshido only because Bruce is not yet allowed out of this realm.
This is why I felt compelled to start this dialogue.
This is one quote I do not get at all. Paul and Peter disagreed. Paul and Barnabas disagreed and even split up. We are called to question leaders and question the teaching of scripture. There is no reason not to. Also, you have yet to establish that you are a minister. Where did you get your training and who appointed or ordained you to be a minister? Not accusing, just trying to verify if it is as you say.
The last paragraph is the one that got my attention. Bruce takes the same attitude with Scripture as he does with kung fu. Either you agree with him or you are a liar is what he seems to preach.
As a non-Christian, would you prefer me to interpret Christian theology through my perspective, to simply refer to my own theology, or to lurk in this thread?
With false malicious words as the ones you said above, I have no desire to rebuke you right now. It is not difficult to expose all you wrong assumptions against me.
Your arguments do not seem spiritual to me but more natural, of the carnal mind.
Preferably for the sake of this discussion, I would prefer to limit it to your interpretation of Christian theology. We can discuss your own theology and beliefs at another time. I do not want this to get to far derailed from a discussion of Christian theology with Bruce and any others who care to participate.
[quote=HungKungFu;2101678]With false malicious words as the ones you said above, I have no desire to rebuke you right now. It is not difficult to expose all you wrong assumptions against me.
Your arguments do not seem spiritual to me but more natural, of the carnal mind.[/quote]
So which words were false and which were malicious? You constantly use false dichotomies and loaded language. Why so mad at me for using words you do not like?
So my arguments seem carnal? Care to elaborate how quoting scripture and giving context and reasoning is carnal and not spiritual or is this the best answer you have to all my questions? You said you were open to discussion on theology too. Prove it.
Fair enough. That is what I want. Let’s keep the two issues separate since they are two different issues. It could get really messy trying to keep them in the same thread.
Because of injustice and false assumptions and lies told and said about me by Omega who is the chief instigator of false attacks upon me. he is the kind of person, (like a little child) that when confronted with some of his error he will say things like this
“Hello all, I know it is not necessarily safe to give Bruce an outlet,”
When you say ,“not necessarily safe.” You imply that it is unsafe to let me speak freely.
Just by speaking that way you cast doubt on my character and who I am. The idea that you or others can give me “an outlet”, is arrogant.
You say you “KNOW” it is not necessarily safe". How do you know such a thing? What assumptions have you made to come to such a false conclusion?[/quote]
It is amazing how you take everything to be such a personal attack. I know it is not safe here to give Bruce an outlet because the people here on this board might do to you in this thread what they did in the other thread. It is for your protection from others in this site. You just took it as a personal attack. You made the assumption that it was against you.
The assumptions I have made is that there are those on this site who would love nothing more to mock Christians and would turn this thread into a trollfest. If this is a false assumption, let me know. Otherwise I would like you to admit that you assumed wrongly my words and intentions.
“Hello all, I know it is not necessarily safe to give Bruce an outlet, but I felt compelled to start this new thread.”
You didn’t say,
“To protect Bruce form others.”
Your wording does not convey what you meant to say. If in fact that was what you meant to say.
Have I ever showed any fear or need of protection from any man here? I have a much higher protector.
The thing about knowing the truth about what I say, is that I can speak boldly and with confidence and knowing that when others make direct statements against me they are wrong.
For example if someone said to you that you have no martial experience at all, and if you did you coudl say that they are wrong. then they may go on and create a massive snowball rolling down the hill based on a whole bunch of false assumptions and lies.
[quote=BoonDog;2102390]
The assumptions I have made is that there are those on this site who would love nothing more to mock Christians and would turn this thread into a trollfest. If this is a false assumption, let me know. Otherwise I would like you to admit that you assumed wrongly my words and intentions.[/quote]
I can agree that there are many , many who would like nothing better than to mock christians and they have done this. But your original words, said "it is not safe to give Me and outlet. Not “give THEM an outlet”.
I love how you just seize on the the words “judge righteous judgement” and neglect the context. You grab those words as if it is your right to judge people based on those words.
Lets look at the context. Jesus went into the temple and began to teach during one of the feasts. The religious leaders interrupted His teaching with shack that He would accuse them of wanting to murder Him. He points out their hypocrisy of allowing certain acts to be done on the Sabbath in order to uphold one law over another. He states that the religious leaders are upset that He healed a man on the Sabbath. Then he says in verse 24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
According to you this means a spiritual judgment. However, there is a more simple and plausible explanation based on context and word usage. The phrase according to appearance is in Greek kat’ opisin, knowing faces, a phrase meaning with respect to person. Is is a known Hebrew phrase from Deut 1:17. It is about not passing judgment based on the person’s status, wealth, outward religious position, or anything of that nature and giving them preference because of that.
Context- Paul is writing to the Church of Corinth. This is a church that is going through a lot of division and has open sin in the church. Paul came to the, humble and preached Christ crucified to them. He mentions wisdom coming from God and the Spirit revealing truth to us believers. He mentions the natural man not receiving anything of the Spirit. The natural man cannot understand anything spiritual. He is at a loss to its meaning.
He then contrasts this with the spiritual man. The spiritual man knows the things of God. The spiritual man discerns the thins of God. He examines them. Yet no man can discern him. Since this is in the same part as discussing wisdom coming from God and the very next verse stats we have the mind of Christ, a safer interpretation is that the spiritual man discerns what is from God and what is not. He can distinguish between teachings from God and teachings not from God.
Hmmm. This is a tough one. Let me think about it. Oh. read Phil 1:10 and the meaning is clear. Phil 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
The discernment is so that we can know what is excellent and be sincere. Is is having our love grow so great that all we want to do is know and follow the right things of the Lord. Good thing we have a context to follow again.
This is a passage I brought up already. It is in regards to believers not taking a brother to court. The saint shall judge the world in the future. This is an appeal that since the saint will in the future be able to judge such a great thing as the world, we should be able to judge smaller matters among ourselves just fine.
You claim that I have not judge rightly, but I just used the context to show how you misapply the scripture. I also like how you failed to address the scripture that says we are to judge those in the church and not those outside the church.
Want to try again and do you want to answer my other questions in this thread?
Right, give you an outlet in which you may be attacked. I am just clarifying what I meant. Why is that hard for you to understand. Why are you still taking it as a personal attack when I stated it was not one and that it was to protect you?
You are really assuming things. You cannot know what I was thinking.
Bruce, having faith is a good thing.
As long as you can realise that you have to take everything in a book of allegories and fables with a tiny pinch of salt, that is.
I mean, the people who wrote the Bible thought that this would happen if you sailed too close to the edge…
Our knowledge has increased massively.
We’re a more sophisticated people in many ways ( and as barbaric in others ).
Assuming people are bad or sinners because they don’t live exactly as the Bible suggests is dumb. I think Jesus would have liked online poker. Disprove this.
You using scripture to attack people is so very wrong.
Trying to bend the meanings of those fables to suit your own ends is the kind of shit pulled by foaming-at-the-mouth fundamentalists strapping bombs to themselves.
First of all, do you really “LOVE” this, or does it trouble you?
You are so wrong in most of your statements to me here, You try the usual, “out of context argument” that so many use to twist verses for their own purpose.
I understand the context. But you can also use the verses in a broad application and spiritual applications if the verse allows for that. This verse in John 7:24 does allow for that and the context is far greater tan you put it. You are looking at things from a limited perspective.
lets look at it,
"In John 7 we see that the jews (unbelievers0 sought to kill jesus John 7:1. First of all we see that Jesus was often attacked by unbelievers. This sounds familiar in the context of me and the many attackers around me in these forums. So already the context is applicable to anyone who seeks to do the will of God and has other unbelievers attacking him. Notice how i am not applying ths to believers judgeing believers But believers judgeing “UNBELIEVERS”.
Now lets go on in the context of John 7, we see that his brethren wanted him to do things openly not in secret. But he said his time was not yet coke. I can apply this to many things I speak about there is a place to not reveal all things to others and to wait for the right time. John 7:3-6.
Then IN CONTEXT OF the chapter, we read,
“The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.” John 7:7)
A true believer can identify with Christ here as i do. And jesus said if they hated him in another place they would hate his followers, he also said as the Father sent him so he sent his disciples. I am a disciple of Jesus and he sent me as well. So I apply this verse to my life in understanding why the many unbelivers in these places hate me.They hate me because i testify that their deeds are evil. That is not all I have done granted. But I have rebuked many and shown their deeds evil. They say I judge them, yes that is true, I judge them with righteous judgement. But we will get to that verse.
So we can see already that the entire chapter of John 7 has applied in context to every true believer.
Lets read on,
“But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.” John 7:10
Here we see a principle and manner of ministry in jesus . ghe did some things in secret. I apply this to my life also at times and when thee is a ned for such things.
Lets read on in context.
“And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.” John 7:12)
Again I apply this also to my life and walk in Christ. Some will say one thing and some another towards me. So far the context applies principally and spiritually in every verse almost.
Lets read on,
“Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.” John 7Z:14)
Jesus would go to the chief place of concourse, where they gathered. i also go to the main places where people discuss and teach.
Then,
'And the Jews marveled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John 7:15)
Here we se that those who thought they had knowledge of some things didn’t know how he had knowledge. Principally I can apply this also. But instead of a religious situation I see it as a martial arts discussion with spiritual undertones. many are like the pharisees, who thing they know some things but they are not really aware of where I come from in my words and background etc.
Lets read on,
"
Jesus now speaks of his doctrine and if men do his will they will know of the doctrine. And then they would know if he spoke of God or o himself.
He also mentions people who seek their own glory and others who seek their own glory. In context he is speaking about men who are not judgeing him rightly they have unrighteous judgement. They even said to him,
“Thou has a devil” John 7:20)
They had false judgement, They as unbelievers.
Interestingly, I have also been called satan in that forum when I spoke of spiritual matters.
He then rebukes the unbelievers for their false judgement and for attacking him for doing a good work.
Then he reminds them not to judge according to outward appearance, but to judge righteous judgement.
All these things apply to me and any treu believer in any form and any place they speak truth. many have judged jesus wrongly according to what they thought. they thought he did not know their letters, they were wrong. they thought he had a devil, they were wrong. they thought he hated them , they were wrong. hey hated him because he testified that their deeds were evil.
I can hear such men to day saying to him. Don’t judge us.
I have walked in his doctrine in the forums also and i have had many attack me and judge me outwardly and wrongly according to what they thing about me. I have some hate me for testifying that their deeds are evil. i have had some think i don’t know their forms and martal arts and judge me wrongly based on thier false asumptions.
So for me to judge rightly in righteous judgement, I can do this as i walk in the doctrine of Christ, which is a spiritual walk and spiritual judgement. But others cannot do this, for they judge by outward appearance and not the reality of the situation. they also do not se things spiritually and are carnal in their man’s judgement. jesus told some unbelievers that they “Judge after the flesh” John 8:15)
You also say,
Wrong, the word means,
" (2919 Greek)
to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
to approve, esteem, to prefer
to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
to determine, resolve, decree
to judge
a)[B] to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one’s case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others[/B]
to rule, govern
a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
to contend together, of warriors and combatants
a) to dispute
b) in a forensic sense
to go to law, have suit at law
In the context of the chapter I believe it means,
"
to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure, and of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others" The particular unbelievers jesus spoke to at that time were the jews, they were suppose to be a light to the gentiles and reflect Gods truth to the world. But they were in fleshly judgement, not spiritual judgement. These things should be clearer to you.
I marvel, that you consider yourself a teacher of others and don’t know these things.
The false judgement that the unbelievers were making about Jesus was a wrong judgement about his life and words etc. So if they did the opposite of this they would have a proper censure of judgement of Jesus and be true arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others.
[quote=BoonDog;2102437]Context- Paul is writing to the Church of Corinth. This is a church that is going through a lot of division and has open sin in the church. Paul came to the, humble and preached Christ crucified to them. He mentions wisdom coming from God and the Spirit revealing truth to us believers. He mentions the natural man not receiving anything of the Spirit. The natural man cannot understand anything spiritual. He is at a loss to its meaning.
He then contrasts this with the spiritual man. The spiritual man knows the things of God. The spiritual man discerns the thins of God. He examines them. Yet no man can discern him. Since this is in the same part as discussing wisdom coming from God and the very next verse stats we have the mind of Christ, a safer interpretation is that the spiritual man discerns what is from God and what is not. He can distinguish between teachings from God and teachings not from God.[/quote]
Yes, so? Paul says clearly that the spiritual man judgeth ALL THINGS. I don’t know about you, but ALL THINGS , to me means ALL THINGS. And when i see a person in error i can Judge ALL THING in the spirit.
A note here. In my bible I see the words Judge and Judgeth, and so I can use that word in referring to what we are to do. I can say, without doubt to a believer that they can “JUDGE” righteous judgement, and that if they are spiritual they can “Judgeth all things”. I don’t need to soften it and say “discern”. I can use biblical language. And from the KJV as well, (yes I am a KJV guy), but I won’t get into this discussion here it is about a 45 hour talk and i don’t have time for this now.
[quote=BoonDog;2102437]Hmmm. This is a tough one. Let me think about it. Oh. read Phil 1:10 and the meaning is clear. Phil 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
The discernment is so that we can know what is excellent and be sincere. Is is having our love grow so great that all we want to do is know and follow the right things of the Lord. Good thing we have a context to follow again.[/quote]
Hmmmm, so I will keep judging this way. (Notice I use the word judge as it is used in the bible, I did not weaken it or change it to discern as you did). I will keep approving things that are excellent and warning against those that are not. I will keep seeking to be sincere in my judgement and without offense. Good thing I know the context of the chapter and use the word Judge rightly. And as we read, “being filled with the fruits of righteousness” Philippians 1;11. And then we can “judge righteous judgement” .
By the way, when a believer judges a person in the church. Yes used that word Judge. The person who sins in the church is not walking in the faith or in Christ at that time. So they are in fact in unbelief. For example in 1 Cor 5 we see that paul said he had judged already concerning the man who had sexual relations with his fathers wife. Paul rebuked them for not judgeing this matter. they thought they were so loving perhaps and paul called them puffed up, and that their glorying was not good. This man was in fornication. And in that sin he was to be handed over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. All this was an attempt to break him and bring him to true repentance and faith again. But as he is in fornication he is lost and will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9,10). He is deceived if he thinks he will enter as many baptist are who sin this way and think all is well and many others who hold a false eternal security view. So in the truest sense the beleivers were judgeing sinners, and unbelievers among them. Not just other believers.
You are to be ashamed, for not rightly dividing the word of truth. And for taking the wrong side against another believer.
Do you really think, that I would go into a forum like this one and lie about my background, my teaches, my knowledge etc etc etc etc, after the things I have said to you here? Really, do you? Why would I risk my eternal salvation on lying in a martial arts forum?
