The revised origin of Wing Chun

I borrowed the following passages from Yip Chun and Danny Connor’s book, “Wing Chun Martial Arts: Principles and Techniques” (Samuel Weiser Inc, York Beach Maine, 1993), pp. 17-23. Yip Chun is one of Yip Man’s sons and he presents an orderly and well thought out argument contradicting the traditional Wing Chun founding legend. Yip Chun narratates his thoughts through an interpreter to Mr. Connor and all the first person references are Yip Chun’s.

"Researching the history of Chinese Kung Fu is very difficult. This is due to a general lack of written records. For every Kung Fu clan, clan history was passed down orally from teacher to disciple. In due course, the disciple himself became a teacher, and taught his own disciples according to what his teacher passed down from generation to generation by word of mouth. This process involved some who were poorly educated, or had poor memories. There were also those who were not very interested in history, and were half-hearted in passing it down. Much was lost here. Some people borrowed from heroic characters in popular Chinese novels. They invented and exaggerated, and gave an air of myth and mystery to their founding fathers.

After several generations, the facts of history will be lost to hearsay and legend. Look at Southern Kung Fu clans. They padded their founders with fable, so all the founders either came from Siu Lam or Mo Dong. They were all Buddist monks, or nuns, or Taoist priests. So, suddenly, the glamour and hype of martial arts history was forced upon these peaceful places and fine people. It became a joke.

There are legends about the origins of the Wing Chun Kung Fu clan, retracing the period from Grandmaster Leung Lan. These are legends because there are no comprehensive written records. The general story goes like this:

Wing Chun was founded by Yim Wing Chun. Yim Wing Chun studied under Ng Mui of Siu Lam. This means that Wing Chun originated in Siu Lam. Yip Wing Chun married Leung Bok Chau, and she followed him back to his home town in Siu Hing, Canton. Wing Chun Kung Fu was passed down to Leung Jan through Leung Bok Chau. There are two different stories here. One says that Leung Bok Chau taught the techniques to Leung Lan Kwai, Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yee Tei and others. Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tei then passed them on to Leung Jan. The other story says that Laung Jan and the others studied together under Leung Bok Chau. These stories about the origin of Wing Chun are consistent with an article by the late Grand Master Yip Man on the origins of Wing Chun and also with a 1972 article I wrote for the ‘Hong Kong Contemporary Martial Arts Circle’. They are also broadly in line with the general story on the origin of Wing Chun.

In 1982, I was in Fatshan, and paid a visit to Pang Nam (Blackface Nam). Pang Nam can be said to be a very senior member in the Fatshan Wing Chun Kung Fu clan. He was senior in years, rather than in the hierarchy. He was already eighty. Our discussion turned to the origin of Wing Chun, and Pang said, ‘Wing Chun was brought to Fatshan from the North by a person called Tan-Sau Ng (Palm-up Ng - a nickname). Yim Wing Chun is only a storybook character.’ He sounded very sure.

Later, I unexpectedly unearthed some information about Tan-Sau Ng, recorded in old literature on the history of Chinese Opera. This information is closely connected to the origin of Wing Chun. There was a book by one Mak Siu Har - ‘A Study on the History of Cantonese Operas’ (Now kept in the Hong Kong City Hall Library) In it there was one paragraph, roughly as follows:

‘Before the reign of Yung Cheng (Manchu emperor, 1723-1736), the development of Cantonese opera was very limited. This was due to defective organization and unclear division of labour. In the years of Yung Cheng, Cheung Ng, of Wu Pak, also known as Tan-Sau Ng, brought his skills to Fatshan and organised the Hung Fa Wui Koon (now the Chinese Artist Association). From there, Catonese opera made great progress.’ The book also records: ‘Besides being very accomplished in Chinese opera, Cheung Ng was especially proficient in martial arts. His tan sau was peerless throughout the martial arts world.’

Another piece of information appears on page 631, Volume III of the book ‘A History of Chinese Opera’, by Mang Yiu, first published by Chuen Kay Literature publishers in 1968. [it reads in part] ‘For some reason, Cheung Ng could not stay on in the capital, so he fled and took refuge in Fatshan. This was during the reign of Yung Cheng. This man, nicknamed Tan-Sau Ng, was a character unsurpassed in literary and military skills, and excellent in music and drama. He was especially proficient in the techniques of Siu Lim. After settling down in Fatshan, he passed on his knowledge in traditional opera and martial arts to the Hung Suen (Red Boat) followers, and established the Hung Fa Wui Koon in Fatshan. Today, Cantonese opera groups revere him as Jo-Si (Founding Master), and refer to him as Master Cheung.’

From the two passages above we learn: Cheung Ng, also known as Tan-Sau Ng, not only excelled in martial arts, but actually taught the techniques himself. He was dubbed ‘Tan-Sau Ng’ because of his ‘tan sau . . . peerless throughout the martial arts world.’ Comparing the legend of Yim Wing Chun with the information on Tan-Sau Ng, I consider the latter more acceptable in our examination of Wing Chun’s origins. The reasons are as follows:

  1. Cheung Ng brought his skills to Fatshan during the reign of Yung Cheng. This was forty to fifty years before the reign of Kin Lung (1736-1795). It was almost a hundred years before the legend of Yim Wing Chun, which fell within the Ham Fung (1851-1861) and Dao Kwong (1821-1850) years.

  2. Tan sau is a technique unique to Wing Chun. Cheung Ng was famous for his tan sau. Cheung Ng actually taught martial arts in Fatshan Hung Suen (Red Boat). And Fatshan was the breeding ground of Wing Chun.

  3. Some years ago, my Kung Fu clansman Pang Kam Fat told me that the Wing Chun stance is best used on boats for stability. Looking further, the various sets of martial arts strokes and practice areas are closely related to practice on narrow boats.

4)Before the skills were handed down to Leung Jan, the people connected, including Leung Lan Kwai, ‘Painted Face Kam’, Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tei, all belonged to the Hung Suen (Red Boat).

Yet it is very difficult to verify the origin of Wing Chun with so little material about Cheung Ng. So, before we find more information and proof, we can perhaps make the following assumptions: During the reign of Yung Cheng, Wu Pak actor Cheung Ng, also known as Tan-Sauu Ng, for some reason fled the capital and went to Fatshan. He organized the Hung Fa Wui Koon at Tai Kay Mei, Fatshan. Apart from teaching traditional operas, he also taught the techniques of martial arts, and was called Master Cheung. The martial arts skills he taught already had the principles and techniques of Wing Chun martial arts.

Perhaps they can be called incomplete or inadequately practised Wing Chun martial arts. A hundred years passed in dissemination (mainly in Hung Suen) and development. Much effort was made by Yim Wing Chun, Leung Bok Chau, Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yee Tei and others. Wing Chun became a complete and mature set of martial arts, which spread and flourished under Leung Jan. The above assumption eliminates the mythical padding to Wing Chun, and provides an orderly progress of events. It also provides a trail which can be followed by people interested in the history of Wing Chun."

[Note: from this book Fatshan is apparently only a couple hours drive from Hong Kong and Yip Man was also born in Fatshan]

wing chun lineage disciple web site link

Hi, no disrespect to wing chun, but why does lineage disciple Sifu Tony Massengil, www.massmartialarts.com have to have a “buffet-style” school if wing chun is such a great art?

He has his lineage on his site.
:Wing Chun Kung Fu Grandmaster Ip (Yip) Man was the teacher
of the legendary “King of Kung Fu” BRUCE LEE.

After more than two decades of teaching in Hong Kong, Grandmaster Ip Man passed away at the age of 72 on December 2, 1972. His small Kung Fu Association grew and gave birth to thousands of Wing Chun practitioners around the world

In the United States the Ip Man system of Wing Chun is overseen by the Traditional Ip Man Wing Chun Association, Headed by Grandmaster Ip Ching and his Disciple, Master Samuel Kwok. Master Kwok’s student, Sifu Tony Massengill represents that association in the United States.

also,Sifu Tony has a big problem with stealing copy and images from other sites. for example, on the “our facility” link at the bottom of Tony’s web site he posts pictures of local McDojos and covers up their painted walls with his own gif.s!

Watch out for this Sifu, he may be authentic, but he has become a McDojo - or can I say a grandbuffet-guan!

(guan or wu guan = kwon = kwoon = dojo)

plus, check out his weight loss pictures that he posted of himself!
:eatbaby:

_ing _unerrs calling bullshido on other _ing _unners? Yet another ‘The Real _ing _in’ arguement.

The Internet is not like nature. It does not profit from recycling.

The point you bring up has nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you have a problem with Sife Massengill, then put this post in the General BS area of this site. We are discussing history…hence the Forum name History Projects.

Extremely interesting. It is nice to see posts like that.

What is also interesting is that everyone goes on about Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun, but no-one ever discusses the possibility that there were other students around at the time who learnt the art. I always hear stories about the Shaolin Temple producing the art (rather than the usual ‘Ng Mui built and gave it to Yim Wing Chun to beat off her suitor’), and wonder as to whether there might be lineages/small schools out there that are practising the original wing chun taught in the temples.

For the record, I do not like talk of ‘pure wing chun’ - I am sure Yip Man changed it, I am sure Yim Wing Chun changed it!! It doesn’t make the art better or worse

Very interesting.

Thanks for the post.

Interesting read. Thanks SB. I like the boat stability reference. It would explain the weird stance.

Funny if this turned out to be true and the stance was wrong because of where it was used.

'bout time this WC history thing was rehashed!.. Firstly on this above, if ng / mg mui/moi ‘built’ and gave etc etc + other families simultaneously were practicing the same thing - then you are not talking about it’s origin… you’re talking about a wide spread applicatively vulnerable to individual consideration somewhat pre-developed system…

This and other storys is discussed at length here:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26670&page=1&pp=15

Post #203 at:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26670&page=14&pp=15

specifically covers this story from Pan Nam

In short, Tan Sau Ng lived in the wrong time frame to be the founder and the story puts him in the North learning Shaolin, not the South. Sifu Pan Nams story is from a recent source, possibly made up strictlly BECAUSE a person in history was found to have the name Tan Sau.

“Tan Sau” is also a form of begging for money, and in that time would have been a secret technique, not a nickname. Tan Sau Ng would then make more sense as the name of a begger, which he was forced to become when the Opera was made illegal at that time.

Always trying to find the middle path, I can see that maybe he was a source of the revolution and opera style 100 years before the style of Wing Whatever was created. It still seems that someone is missing from this story.

At the other link I outline a connection to White Crane, which seems also to be a more plausable origin.

Maybe the two lines crossed on the Red Junks?

as to the stance, it does seem to make sense for on Chinese boats. Have you seen Southern Chinese fishing boats? Basically a log with a basket tied on top and a gaggle of Cormorants to catch fish for you. Having been an Arborist and tree climber I can tell you that Adduction stance is very good on a narrow branch (log) bobbing in the wind.

:new_usa:

Exactly. But what I am questioning is did Ng Mui really build it herself or was it shown to her as part of the Shaolin system. I have heard that when the Emperor destroyed the Shaolin temples only a few monks escaped, and Ng was one of them. Therefore there might have been a lineage before her

  1. Cheung Ng brought his skills to Fatshan during the reign of Yung Cheng. This was forty to fifty years before the reign of Kin Lung (1736-1795). It was almost a hundred years before the legend of Yim Wing Chun, which fell within the Ham Fung (1851-1861) and Dao Kwong (1821-1850) years.

This is new prospect. Wonder if there’s any historical documentation.

  1. Tan sau is a technique unique to Wing Chun. Cheung Ng was famous for his tan sau. Cheung Ng actually taught martial arts in Fatshan Hung Suen (Red Boat). And Fatshan was the breeding ground of Wing Chun.

tan sao unique to WC? does he realize that there’s not many ways of doing a block with the palm facing up and the arm moving upwards/to the side? plenty of other chinese martial arts do this…

  1. Some years ago, my Kung Fu clansman Pang Kam Fat told me that the Wing Chun stance is best used on boats for stability. Looking further, the various sets of martial arts strokes and practice areas are closely related to practice on narrow boats.

This sounds alot like “TKD has kicks because in ancient Korea they had to kick off bandits off horses” or some junk like that. Associating purpose of technique to ancient artifacts is purely correlative at best.

4)Before the skills were handed down to Leung Jan, the people connected, including Leung Lan Kwai, ‘Painted Face Kam’, Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tei, all belonged to the Hung Suen (Red Boat).

I feel this is probably his strongest point, albeit still correlative at best and not a direct concrete link, but it’s better than stories about Yim Wing Chun. As much as I’d like to believe in an uber hottie with the ultimate martial arts skill, we all know that’s some poor ancient chunner’s wet dream.

Is there any historical documentation regarding Ng Mui teaching Yim Wing Chun??

I agree - I am sure that there are some schools of Tai Chi that do somethig similar to a tan sao

I disagree. If you spend your days farming boats and standing on them, you start thinking about stances. It’s similar to when I get the train to work. I always try to adopt my stance to counter the effects of inertia.

It is wholly possible that the stance was adpoted through this

To be honest, I would rather have an art with no past. The stories of Yim Wing Chun are good to inspire females into taking up the art but that’s about it.

Someone once told me that wing chun was devised by a monk who was watching a snake fight a crane. The crane was using big movements with its wing to deflect the snake (like bong sao) and the snake was moving its whole body to avoid the crane’s beak. It’s nice to believe this thing, but I expect that the truth is a bit simpler (some guy just came up with it!)

exactly. Maybe the guy who does all the writing for wheeties boxes made it up for your morning entainment?? … see ‘that’s’ plausible. :wink:

Ah but were Wheeties around in the 16th century??

I have heard both stories and was unsure as to which one was true. Thanks for what I believe to be clarity on the subject.

Another way to look at this is that maybe, because this is somewhat a macho society we live in, this new “history of Wing Chun” could simply be a way to take credit away from women and give to the men, just a thought.

and ‘did’ a tree just fall in a forrest with no-one around to hear it??.. …

That’s the way I understand it to be with regard to triad family history except that it really wasn’t called wingchun until after the temple raizing and was re-introduced ( ?) elsewhere later … like the hung suen …

I think alot of the conflict comes from the fact that the 5 elders were from shaolin and yet Wing chun is known as a daoist system. …

I still personally believe from my research that the system was practiced earlier by the triad family , but this link http://home.cwru.edu/casekungfu/kungfu.html gives a good explaination of how that came to be at the temple and where exactly the two married and even how hung gar and the triad family comes into the same equation …

According to this link, the story is just slightly different and Wing chun conception is attributed to the abbot Jee Shin, but with credits to Ng Mui. All the same pieces are there and I think that it’s just been put together over time in varying pieces including or omitting this or that, but all saying the same thing … providing you have the other bits.

Then this link http://www.wingchun.com.vn/lichsu/Tua_phaheVXVN_e.htm ties Chueng Ng to Ng mui and to Vietnam and also to Yip Man / Ip chun making reference to Chueng Ng, putting ‘him’ at the shaolin temple supposedly 1 yr after Ng Mui ,the red boat , the cantonese opera and talks about the boats and the stance developement and purpose.

There’s also this , http://www.shaolin-society.co.uk/History_of_Gung-Fu/Wing_Chun/wing_chun.php that though directly contradictory on it’s own, puts Chueng Ng at the temple at the same time Ng Mui was there in other accounts, and still correlates with the rest of the tale nonetheless. … because he was also there at the raizing and instead fled north to become a shaolin monk before he went south and joined the anti-manchu rebel secret society… like the ones that hid and supported the fleeing monks … who like the anti-manchurians, enjoyed a freedom to practice peacefully during the Ming … who also killed Chuengs family.

Again, together a little muddled but between them , but all the pieces there and match.

If nothing else a good story, and entertaining read so check it out and enjoy.

cheers
Blooming Lotus

Go read the link I provided. Tan Sau Ng is in the record book of the history of Fatsuan, living in the wrong time period.

This is such BS! Ok Tan sau NG was not credited for starting the Red opera! He was credited for starting the movement that later became the red opera. This can all be noted outside of wing chun’s history! Check out some of the chinese opera history.

I have to admit when I first heard this I did not want to let go of my Shaw brothers kung fu flick image of a women leaving shaolin to teach yim wing chun. But then the real world tells me that there was no women in the shaolin monistary back then. plus why would a nun risk her life and others life to teach some girl. I mean really come on!

Ok really who cares which story is true. Both say that it comes from shaolin. Hell I don’t care if fedex delivered or UPS as long as I recieve my package who gives a rats ass? I have used what I know defending myself and as a security guard. So it doesn’t matter if someone proves to me that my sifu made my style up I don’t care it works for me!

So the next time someone says I have the origins of wing chun. We need to ask Ok that fine now what the hell are you going to with it and how can it help me? Dead horse gents it’s a fucking dead horse!