The Definitive LEGITIMATE Surviving Western Martial Art/Combat Sport List

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Bullshido.ORG Martial Arts Encyclopedia Discussion
1

Hello All,

In the past 10 years or so, the WMA (Western Martial Arts) and more focused HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) movements have grown vastly in popularity. “Popularity” and Bullshido “Arts” seem to go hand-in-hand, and I have personally noticed quite a few supposed “living lineages” that seem to have come from out of nowhere.

I think it would therefore be constructive to produce a list of legitmate Western WMAs/HEMAs (including both martial arts, and combat sports). Feel free to add to this list:

Western Boxing (Marquis of Queensberry Rules)–referred to as boxe Anglais by savateurs.

Western Wrestling (Freestyle/Folkstyle, Greco-Roman, Professional Catch-As-Catch-Can/Professional Lancashire).

Have various indigenous styles–i.e., Cumberland, Westmorland, Cornish, Devonshire, Schwingen, glima, et al.–actually survived?

Is so, which ones?

Western Fencing (Foil, Epee, & Saber)–French School and Italian School. Singlestick (which could be viewed as an “English School”) was Fencing’s “fourth weapon”, and was in fact an Olympic event until 1904. Singlestick was practiced (in British public schools and by American Navy cadets) as late as the 1930s. One does not hear of it after that. (Souce: J. Christoph Amberger, in the Winter 1995/96 issue of the now-defunct Hammerterz Forum newsletter).

Boxe Francais Savate French kickboxing.

La Canne French stickfighting.

Modern Military Bayonet Schools Various.

Composite Styles, drawing from both East and West

[b]Sambo[/b] A Russian combination of judo and numerous Eurasian wrestling styles, developed during the early Communist period.

[b]Brazilian jiu-jitsu[/b] A grappling art developed in Brazil that has its base rooted in Japanese jujutsu (the Fusen-ryu, specifically) and early judo. Also appears to have some CACC elements, as Mitsuyo Maeda competed regularly in catch tournaments in London. Note that famous old photo of him, in wrestling tights with his opponent in a half-Nelson/hammerlock combo. (Source: Mastering Jujutsu by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher).

Kalis Ilustrisimo According to Romy Macapagal, the archivist for the Ilustrisimo system, a full 40% of this FMA style is “Spanish derived”. It’s also interesting to note that the famous FMA school that existed in Manilla in the late 19th century–the Tanghalan ng Sandata (“Hall of Weapons”)–taught not only Filipino arnis, but also Spanish esgrima (“fencing”), with the foil, epee, and saber. (Sources: http://www.realfighting.com/issue7/romyframe.html and Filipino Martial Culture by Mark V. Wiley).

Again, any additions to this legit list are welcome.

We can also discuss all the suspect styles.

Best,

A_H

P.S. I posted this here because I want sources. I want good sources–i.e., not things like a website belonging to, say, some guy who claims to teach you how to fight like a Highland Scot with broadsword and targe.

2

Well, I haven’t had access to the physical survivng manuscripts themselves, but to add to fencing (and also wrestling): A 14th (?) century German master named Johannes Lichtenauer wrote a system of longsword techniques in “merkverse” (A somewhat cryptic verse, mostly used for memorization), and one of his studnents, Sigmund Ringeck expanded on this technique, including wrestling, halbred, and mounted techniques.

Also, Royal Armouries currently has a manuscript simply numbered I-33 (roman numeral one, number thirty three, NOT “eye thirty-three”) in the Tower of London that talks about sword-and-buckler techniques (however, whether these techniques were intended for martial or civil use is unknown. It is possible they were merely intended for duels).

There are a few other historical masters manuscripts that I have not had time to look into with very much detail (Liberi, Fiore, and Meyer come to mind… however, I know that is not a complete list)

3

Almost all the FMA Sword and Dagger stuff seems to be derived from Spanish Influence. Panatukan/Dirty boxing seems to have come into its own (in my only semi-educated understanding) only after Filipinos migrated to Hawaiin plantations, but I could be wrong.

Also I’ve heard rumors of some Hawaiin art, but I don’t remember/know anything about it.

American Bowie Knife & Tomahawk fighting (not sure if it qualifies as an art, but definantly a catalogue of techniques)

Western (old west) Sharpshooting/Trickshooting? (Guns count, ye?)

What about all those Western MA groups that are trying to re-aliven the old euro-weapons/fighting manuals?

Also, anybody know stuff about the “come-along,” chicken wings, full and half-nelsons, and other standing grappling moves? Where do they come from system-wise?

4

That’s where all my experience comes from. However, there currently is no true “master” in any of these techniques, as it’s mostly experimentation still. I’d almost go as far as to say anyone who claims a “rank” or “qualification” in these fields is bullshido, but the AEMMA and ARMA actually do a very good job of keeping things scholarly, even though they award ranks and such.

5

Hey, no spanish school of fencing per se?
Plus:
Western kickboxing should be on the composite art.

6

Guys,

I’m talking about surviving methods (mentioned that in the thread title).

Sorry not trying to sound like a jerk.

Best,

A_H

7

I would still consider Sambo eastern or at least Asiatic but I could be wrong.

8

I listed it as a “composite style” because of it’s Eurasian background.

9

Oh, in that case… Forget everything I said :stuck_out_tongue:

10

Highland Wrestling is an event at the Highland Games, I imagine that counts as a local derivation of Western Wrestling (related to Cumberland Wrestling). I’ll check around and see if I can find a ruleset or some description of what it is.

EDIT:

Brief description of Highland Wrestling and a picture of two participants: http://www.gmhg.org/highlandwrestling.htm

Rules: http://millennium.fortunecity.com/greendale/500/Scot/rules.html

11

Pugil Sticks
WW2 Combatives

I still think old west sharpshooting/trick shooting should be listed as an MA.

12

Archery leaps to mind.

13

Glima exists, I think it’s the national sport of Iceland… But it’s not any kind of ancient deathart, it’s WRESTLING, with even stricter rules than Greco-Roman…

& There are different styles of Savate, ‘La Boxe Francaise’ is one of them, the most often seen kickboxing in a ring variety. -> Whether the others are still really practiced… Now that is a good question…

14

Almost entirely reconstruction and not a continuous lineage. There are still serious disagreements on some of the most basic constituents of these arts, such as parrying edge or side.

15

With the proviso that this list deals only with surviving, lineal-descent martial arts and combat sports of European ancestry, rather than the process of reviving extinct methods from manuscript sources:

Have various indigenous styles–i.e., Cumberland, Westmorland, Cornish, Devonshire, Schwingen, glima, et al.–actually survived?

Yes; Cumberland/Westmoreland (the two styles combined sometime in the 1800s), Cornish (a.k.a Cornu-Breton), Schwingen and Glima are all still practised in their native countries and some are gaining popularity elsewhere. To this list, add:

Lucha Canaria (wrestling of the Canary Islands)
Highland wrestling (a.k.a. Scottish Backhold wrestling)
Lancashire wrestling, a.k.a “catch-hold”, Catch-as-catch-can, etc. evolved in several directions, including into modern professional wrestling.
“Graeco-Roman” wrestling was actually a French reconstruction of classical Greek wrestling, and was founded in the late 1800s; it draws more from regional French styles than from the Greek original.

Western Fencing (Foil, Epee, & Saber)–French School and Italian School. Singlestick (which could be viewed as an “English School”) was Fencing’s “fourth weapon”, and was in fact an Olympic event until 1904. Singlestick was practiced (in British public schools and by American Navy cadets) as late as the 1930s. One does not hear of it after that. (Souce: J. Christoph Amberger, in the Winter 1995/96 issue of the now-defunct Hammerterz Forum newsletter).

Singlestick fencing underwent revivals post-1930; there were sporadic tournaments arranged by fencers up until at least the mid-'70s. This art may in fact not have completely died out at all, and it is now a popular tournament event in Western martial arts circles.

Bayonet fencing according to the old (c1900) rules is still practiced in parts of Europe, notably in Holland, as a recreational sport mostly by modern Olympic-style fencers.

“Classical” fencing, i.e. fencing according to the old duelling rules, is still practised in a select few salles (schools) around the world.

La Boxe Francaise is a popular sport in France and the self defense application, known as Savate Defence and based on the late 1800s street fighting form of the art, is still taught as an adjunct to the more common and popular sporting style.

La Canne de Combat - http://www.webmartial.com/canne.htm - has evolved into a stick-fencing sport while la Grand Baton, a fencing style using a two-handed stick, is also still practiced throughout France, Belgium and elsewhere.

A number of other stick fighting methods are still practiced in parts of Europe; notably Juego del Palo of the Canary Islands (about a dozen sub-styles with their own rules and techniques) - http://ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2000/jwmaart_wolf_0500.html; Jogo do Pau in Portugal (likewise, a number of sub-styles) - http://www.jogodopau.com/index_top.html ; la Canne Italiana - http://web.tiscali.it/canneitaliana/ - a variation of the French Canne de Combat; and there are strong rumors of other stick fighting arts still extant in rural Italy (Bastone Siciliano, etc.) The EuroStickFight Yahoo email group is the best source for these arts in English.

The art of Sicilian stiletto fencing (training for honor duels) may still be practised in the town of Corleone in Italy; we’re awaiting proof on that one but it looks likely.

16

Chausson/Old Savate/Zipota: Martial art of basque origin. Supposedly precursor to modern day savate. Kicks similiar to savate, but hands are open.

Baranta: Submission Wrestling and weapons style of hungarian origin. As with all things hungarian, link with ancient huns/magyars is tenuous. Revivalist, by all indications.

http://www.dunakanyar.net/~baranta/atmenet/english.html

http://gportal.hu/gindex.php?prt=44389

http://klinda.web.aplus.net/birkozasinfo/id52.html

17

Whats odd with this picture? Did anyone catch it?

  1. BJJ is based on Japanese judo
  2. Ilustrisimo is based on Spanish/Western derived art
    (40%)

There seem to be a reverse double standard here.

Yet some its okay to list Illustrisimo as a Western influence art but yet BJJ cant be listed as a Japanese/Eastern influence art???

18

As for Western art there were some really great posts last year or two years ago. There were some odd end street fighting manuals. Cant remember the title.

Theres Celtic wresting. Where the guys wear these white tights and the rule of the game is basically try to get the other person to touch the floor. I guess the white tights is a good indicator to see who has touched the floor (grass) first.

19

I’m talking about surviving methods (mentioned that in the thread title).

Medieval fighting arts are still practiced today, albeit in a recreated form. Unless you meant “survived… as a living tradition.” Although, there are some who claim to practice various medieval styles as part of a living tradition (usually a side thing claimed by fencing Maestros). Ronin knows someone who claims that (and I think studied it too!).

20

Freddy, what are you trying to say?

I stated that BJJ is rooted in old-style Japanese judo/jujutsu, and that (according to Mr. Macapagal) Kalis Ilustrisimo is “40% Spanish derived”.

Where’s this supposed “reverse double standard” you’re talking about?