The Bruce Show.

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Trollshido
1

Dear Noobie:

The nature of the style of Hapkido, the organization and the individual school is going to have a lot to to do with what you experience. Hapkido arts in and of themselves are challenging and demanding both. However, most people who purport to teach Hapkido arts are somewhat compromised to begin with what I mean by this is that there are certain conditions and influences that cause these individuals to “adjust” what they teach and this impacts the effectiveness of the material. Some of these influences are —

1.) Commerce. A person who wants to make his Hapkido efforts a commercial success is going to make the material he teaches as “community friendly” as he can. This might mean teaching modified Hapkido material to children, cutting out information that students don’t like and deleting material that might expose the school to later liabilities of one sort or another.

2.) Ignorance. A person who wants to teach Hapkido may not know all that much himself. Hapkido arts are challenging and sophisticated and they are not for everyone. Yong Sul Choi, who originated the era of Modern Hapkido by teaching Yawara in Korea after returning from Japan was known to have compalined that most students did not stay long enough to fully understand what it was that he was working to teach them. It is also common knowledge that many “hapkido” schools are, in fact, nothing more than other arts, say, TKD, which have added joint locks or throws to their curriculums. Hardly efficacious S-D.

3.) Affiliation. The Hapkido arts are fraught with devisiveness. What you will learn may depend heavily on which art you are exposed to. This is not just a matter of HOW the teachnique is done but also the political and ethical philosophy behind what is done. For instance a Hapkido Art which uses a Mu-Do approach will advocate a comprehensive approach including both armed and unarmed material and a system of beliefs and approaches that bind the system together. A non-Mu-do approach will often single-out only the unarmed material and may, on occassion incorporate material from other cultures or arts to accomplish their goals.

I don’t know if any of this is helping. I will also add that in all possible honesty I would not teach you Hapkido and would not recommend it to you. Traditional Hapkido is an art that accepts the use of lethal force. What I mean by this is that, for instance, the sword work in Hapkido arts is taught using the sword as a weapon, and not for sport as in Kumdo or Kendo. A person who wants to learn tradition Hapkido needs to be mature enough to handle the responsibility for the skills they are learning. No offense is intended. You aksed a question and I am wanting to be as honest and upfront as I can be. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

2

Too deadly! No can teach! Aagh!

t-man: if ever you come across in person anyone making claims like this, run a mile. That delicate whiff reaching your nostrils is what round here we call “Bullshido”.

I generally hear much more bad than good of Hapkido, though like almost anything, there are some places that train sensibly with full-contact sparring. Training method matters more than art in many cases, but some arts have a much higher percentage of places that train hard than others. In judo, which has been mentioned, you have to compete to grade to any meaningful level with almost all judo governing bodies. This means that in practice judo schools that don’t spar are rare, and belong to kooky organisations. A similarly small number of boxing gyms avoid sparring. In tae-kwon-do however a great many places play foot tag, in most aikido dojos the concept of sparring is regarded as faintly repulsive, and “traditional” jujitsu is nearly just as bad.

This means in practice we have to recommend arts with good track records, while suggesting you check out the schools of all the arts that interest you anyway. Remember though that any art works against a compliant opponent, so the test of an art is how it deals with someone fighting back; this is also pretty much the difference between boxing and boxercise.

When you’ve looked into it more, why not post your experiences so we have the information to give you more specific advice?

3

Dear Sophist:

"…Too deadly! No can teach! Aagh!

t-man: if ever you come across in person anyone making claims like this, run a mile. That delicate whiff reaching your nostrils is what round here we call “Bullshido”…"

I think you are being inaccurate and unfair. That is not what I wrote to the person who started this thread. Please read again.

The intention of traditional Hapkido is to stop the fight. The purpose for this is to work towards re-establishing the Hwa of the community. If I can stop the fight by buying someone a drink or apologizing this too is Hapkido. However, if I am required to break an elbow or a wrist, or choke a person out, I need to be able to take responsibility for this behavior. If I am to teach another person these skills I need to know that person can take responsibility for those actions.

I don’t know you and perhaps I may be mistaken. If I had to draw a conclusion I would say you are used to working with civil arts or martial sports in which a person needs to consider the implications of what they do within a social context. All well and good. To train in a martial art is to participate in an activity whose nature and training produces a fundamental change in the persons’ personality. For instance, to teach a person to use a sword as a weapon capable of taking a life is to help that person to accomodate these new found skills into his life so as to come out of the Best part of their Self. Not to do this is to wind up with someone running around on the White House lawn with a katana as happened years ago and being shamefully subdued by White House security.

I understand that on these Nets terms like “martial arts” are thrown around very casually. There are, however, some of us who still take our responsibilities seriously and actually do teach serious MA. It is not martial sport, or martial theatre. It is not MMA, NHB or BJJ. It is training which uses military material (argueably antiquated in some respects) to produce a person whose Character will allow them to do the right thing when required to do so. Hope this helps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

4

Just out of curiosity, do you not consider judo to be a martial art?

5

Firstly: anyone genuinely interested in causing harm to another person would be much better advised to use a knife or gun. This is not a particularly hard notion for people to wrap their heads round, and hence most killings and many serious assaults involve a weapon.

Hence, if you think you can trust someone not to randomly attack people with knives, they’re probably safe to teach chokes and armlocks to. Even if they can’t be trusted with a knife, giving them a less dangerous tool is not a big deal.

Secondly: I’m deeply suspicious of claims such as “the sword work in Hapkido arts is taught using the sword as a weapon, and not for sport as in Kumdo or Kendo”. Are you implying this makes it somehow more dangerous knowledge to impart, or conversely that you think Kendo teachers irresponsible? If the former, does this mean you don’t incorporate contact sparring? If the latter, I believe I have already made my point as to the discrepancy between an armed and unarmed man; you don’t need to be trained to use a sword to be able to wreak havoc with it, and there are weapons more commonly used that trump it rather.

[quote=““Bruce W Sims””]
to teach a person to use a sword as a weapon capable of taking a life is to help that person to accomodate these new found skills into his life so as to come out of the Best part of their Self.
[/quote]

And this I find not merely bizarre, but disturbing. That people are locking themselves away in rooms and getting all serious about the fantasy notion of killing other people with a sword raises severe questions about what sort of psychological issues they might have, IMO. To carry on ancient customs of swordplay as part of a game is one thing; but this sounds more like masturbating to a weapon.

To go back a little and examine another thing:

[quote=““Bruce W Sims””]
If I can stop the fight by buying someone a drink or apologizing this too is Hapkido.
[/quote]

Really? Do you train drink-buying in your dojo? Are there de-escalation kata passed down from the days of yore? If not, I humbly submit that that is not Hapkido at all.

To be frank, I still think you exemplify the “too deadly” attitude I mentioned earlier, though I’d be glad to be proved wrong. You speak of “responsibility” in deciding whether or not to pass on these dangerous techniques, which are included in those martial sports you speak of - would you exercise the same frenzied secrecy if someone asked you how to swing a baseball bat effectively?

Martial arts are not and should not be religions, nor even philosophy sessions. If they produce a genuinely humbling effect or instill camaraderie this is a useful byproduct, but not the point of the exercise. If people are seeking knowledge of self-defence, the dogma and tradition that grows round “spirituality” is likely to hinder the adoption of effective techniques and training methods.

6

Dear Sophist:

Somehow, now it appears that you are just taking a position only to be using bandwidth. I did not come on here to be a source of amusement for you. A person asked a question about Hapkido and I have trained in that art for quite some time. I am genuinely sorry that your understanding of martial arts and its purposes is so shallow or pedestrian. Perhaps you have been hurt by someone in the past. Maybe noone has taught you any better. Honestly, I don’t know. I don’t know you. Its rather apparent from what little you have shared that you either don’t or don’t want to funtion at a level any higher than what you have demonstrated.

a.) No we don’t teach drinking in our dochang. We do develop Character so as to use something other than force to accomplish a goal. We also develop Character so we can admit when we are wrong. Ending a fight or a conflict does not always fall to fighting. My sense is that perhaps this might be the only sort of response that you respect but that is for another thread.

b.) And your suggestion about buying a gun or a knife is well-taken. I didn’t know we were reducing this discussion to no more than winning and losing. Once again, perhaps this is the only way you see the world. Somebody wins and somebody loses. My understanding was that someone wanted to know about Hapkido and thats the information that I gave him. You may not agree or like the information but that problem is on you, and is not mine. The issue of misusing martial art training has been covered by greater people than myself including both Funakoshi and Kano in their writings. Teachers are required to do whatever is possible to preclude this. If that includes limiting enrollment then perhaps thats whats necessary.

c.) I am likewise going to conclude that you don’t know a whole lot about using a sword. Please accept my instruction in the most supportive way. using a stick and striking with a strike, however fast, is not the same as striking with a sword. The sword cut in not only a function of velocity but also lateral movement as well. This produces the Draw Cut, Press Cut and Push cut Characterisitic of that art. Kumdo and Kendo practitioners work at a martial sport. One has no fear of what a person does because there will always be the parameters of the rules. The same can be said of tournament Karate, TKD, Judo and a host of other activities. Once you have introduced rules you shift from a martial art to a martial sport.

d.) As far as the matter of contact sparring I find this an oxymoron. You are either fighting the person to do damage or you are not. In training we work to apply as much speed, power, and skill as possible. We train as well so the the partners can survive without injury while allowing the person executing the technique to use as much relality as is humanly possible. I have been down the whole contact/no contact-hyung/no hyung trolling way too many times to waste my energies on it any further. Perhaps in your life you have been mislead by someone, I don’t know. But the discussion in this area simply goes in circles of what and how people use and define terms and I have no more time for it. Sorry.

“…And this I find not merely bizarre, but disturbing. That people are locking themselves away in rooms and getting all serious about the fantasy notion of killing other people with a sword raises severe questions about what sort of psychological issues they might have, IMO. To carry on ancient customs of swordplay as part of a game is one thing; but this sounds more like masturbating to a weapon…”

Sorry you feel that way. Hapkido has 6 traditional weapons (actually five official and two unofficial). Perhaps from your point of view you see no point in studying ANY of these. I can appreciate that. The Hapkido arts are not for everyone. It will take you about 5 years or some 800 mat hours to make a BB in the kwan to which I belong. At that point it will take you another 25 years to make it to 6th dan. Most Americans do not have this patience or commitment. But this is how it is done correctly. Byt the time you make 6th dan you will know quite a bit. If I am understanding your particular point of view however, the only thing I imagine that you are concerned with is whether or not a person will be able to win fights. The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that they will have lost the desire to be a part of fights and will reflexively tend to not be found in those places where fights occur. By extension, if a diruption occurs, they will do whatever is possible/necessary to retore the harmony of the situation. I suspect you would find this unstatisfying and even remotely “wussie-fied”. But we are talking about Hapkido and this is the nature of the art.

Lastly, let me say that we are not speaking of religion. The Korean martial traditions ARE founded to some extent in Buddhism and thats true enough. More importantly they are founded in neo-Confucianis with its emphasis on ethics, order and appropriate place in the community. Most of the people who drop out of my classes do so for one of two reasons. Either they want the skills of the art and don’t want to change their personalities, or they cannot accept that they have a single average place in the community and from that point they are expected to volunteer more TO the community than they take away FROM it. The reason I am taking time to entertain your questions and your affrontive attitude is that the person who originally asked about Hapkido needs to know both sides of the population. Truthfully there are a lot more folks like you in the KMA than there are of me.

Quote:

“…Martial arts are not and should not be religions, nor even philosophy sessions. If they produce a genuinely humbling effect or instill camaraderie this is a useful byproduct, but not the point of the exercise. If people are seeking knowledge of self-defence, the dogma and tradition that grows round “spirituality” is likely to hinder the adoption of effective techniques and training methods…”

You cannot know how very wrong you are. And I can tell you honestly that in past experiences I have worked hard to point out how incorrect this thinking is with whomever presented it. Then I realized that I am not dealing with “thinking” as much as a tightly held “belief system” based on emotion. I have no power against such things. You believe this because you need to and not because its true. You will shift your thinking when you are ready and not a day before. Sorry. This is as much as I can do for you.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

7

Speaking soley from 27 years of MA experience:

Your condensending attitude sucks.
Your “moral highground” is pathetic
Your reek of elitist attitude and a misplace superiourity complex.

In short, you present everything you seem to be against.

8

Maybe some day I’ll be as fortunate as Bruce, and I too will have it all figured out.

9

…perhaps when I reach 6th dan, all the answers will be revealed.

10

Dear Wing Chun Lawyer:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Sorry you “hear” my words as pompous. They were not meant to be but I can understand how you might hear it that way as you read my sentence with your internal voice. I think its important to remember that the tone of the voice that you are using-- even as you read this— is a function of past experiences. If you read my words while allowing your internal voice to use a “snooty tone” it would be very likely that you will put a “snooty” interpretation on what I have written. Thats not how it was meant but I can understand that is how it could well turn-out for you.

Actually the reason I am responding is that you may be misguided in your belief about the role of the teacher. Perhaps you are confusing the term “coach” or “instructor” with “teacher. If that is the case I apologize. Even coaches, though have an ethical responsibility to teach their players more than winning and losing. While professional sports have all but made a joke of “sportsmanship”, “teamwork” and Chracter-building” the constructs are still alive and well albeit harder to find in our modern world. The "coach is still required to imbue his players with these qualities. A teacher of martial arts is even more heavily burdened though I doubt most of what passes for MA “teachers” on our present world have any intention of meeting those responsibilities. I wish it were different, but its not.

Lastly, the confusion between “material arts”, “martial sports” “martial commerce commerce”, “martial theatre” etc etc etc are only blurred because it serves the current evironment to keep them blurred. As long as things are kept blurred, in exact, confused and predicated on oral tradition, myth and rumor accountability for the nature and transmission of the arts is little or none. That is just the way people want it. I don’t have to agree (and I don’t) but there is nothing I can do about others. I teach what I teach as I teach it. I don’t charge. And I pretty much go wherever I can get to to share what I can. People who come get taught. Those who don’t come don’t get taught. But it is done according to a traditional ethos and that is not negotiable. The idea of Kids training in Judo or in BJJ or anything else— well, thats on those arts. I know little or nothing about them. I know only that if someone finds themselves in a position that a choke becomes lethal— by intent— that student needs to be able to take responsibility for what they did which brings it back to me.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

11

One more thing, Bruce. You should really work hard to understand this. There are people here with MUCH MORE experience in martial arts than you, and Ronin is probably one of those. Those people have concluded, after years and years (sometimes decades) of practicing punches, kicks and throws, that the purpose of doing that is to learn how to perform punches, kicks and throws in the best possible manner.

And punches, kicks and throws are useful only for hurting people, no matter how much you want to disguise this with some old eastern philosophy which was probably never applied in the first place.

This is just common sense. A piano player who practices 12 hours a day is not developing discipline and a greater understanding of his place in his community or in the universe. He is just improving his musical skills. Discipline comes second, music comes first.

People better than you or I understand this. You would do well to listen to what those guys have to say, instead of assuming you are wiser and/or more experienced than any of us from the start, which is what you did here.

12

Dear BatRonin:

Nice thing about being 55 is that I have made it to this point without becoming bitter or jaded, not that I might not have plenty of reasons to be either. I mention this only because you seem to be telling me that you are particularly proud that people here are cynical to the point of being caustic. I can understand how you might come to feel like this. I’m just wondering at how it automatically seems to shift any thinking “not yours” into a wastepaper basket of sorts. Doesn’t this make it hard to hear another point of view? I mean if you have already decided on who I am and what kind of person I am before you have read a half-dozen posts don’t you see something wrong with this picture?

I have gone over my threads a couple of times. I see sound information based on 30 years in MA and 20 years in Hapkido exclusively. I don’t see “pompous” or “condescension.” What I see is a person who knows what he is talking about and has shared that information without attitude or derision— both of which I think you will agree I have gotten a taste of in return.

As I shared with “Sophist” the folks reading my posts may not care for the information. It is correct. It is accurate. It may not be palatable, but it is about as close to the truth as I can provide to the originator of the thread.

Certainly, your mileage may vary.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

13

Therapy.
Seek it.
SOON.

14

For someone with “30 years of MA” and a ripe age of 55, you need to learn alot more than you do right now.

EX:
Religion MAY have been introduced into the MA for some reason or another, but do NOT think that it was founded on it.

You talk about MARTIAL arts and that they are not sport and the “dangers” of such, well I see no religion in THAT, if you do, where ?

You say that people throw around the term “martial art” and “martial artist” around like it was nothing.

Actually, THAT is what YOU are doing.

15

Dear BatRonin:

“…You say that people throw around the term “martial art” and “martial artist” around like it was nothing…”

Please note what you wrote to me. I am inviting you to go back and re-read my post. I did not say that people were throwing " around the term “martial art” and “martial artist” around like it was nothing." In your mind you added the words “like it was nothing.” The you responded to the sentence that YOU constructed but you attributed it in construction and in meaning to me. Is this what your emotions have brought you to? You not only make up the facts, and represent them as true but then you blame someone else for the bad result? My guess is that you are laying this on me because other people have done this. Now you are teating me the way you wish you would have trreated others before they got their licks in, yes?

As far as Religions’ role in the martial arts, I can only speak for the historical provenences. IN the KMA the teaching of Won Hyo Guang reconciled Buddhist thought with Confucian pragmatism. The result was the O-GAE that is pretty much been in continued use since the 4th century albeit with some modification (IE: “Loyalty to ones king” shifted to “loyalty to ones flag” or “loyalty to ones nation”). The shift from simple survival to fighting for some ideal greater than one Self is what produced the change over from simple militancy to martial spirit and caused fighters to become “warriors”. Very important distinction. If you think this incorrect you might want to consider examining a few sources on the European evolutions of similar nature resulting in the call by Pope Urban II for the First Crudade. Just a thought. I also think this will adress your other question about
“…You talk about MARTIAL arts and that they are not sport and the “dangers” of such, well I see no religion in THAT, if you do, where ?..” Unfortunately I can’t do much more than this. You are going to beliefve what you want to believe. I can give you information and you can expand your knowlege base. I can’t change the way you feel about things or what you have decided to believe. I’m afraid thats about all I can do. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

16

Dear Wing Chun Lawyer:

I wanted to take a moment and thank you sincerely for making my point in a way much better than I might have done. Please consider what you wrote to me.

“…PS: in your wisdom you have forgotten to actually define martial arts and martial sports, so we can distinguish both from your point of view. Enlighten us, oh high one…”

The information that I shared was to the originator of this thread. There was no need to define terms as there are whole books that treat to these themes and far better written than my post, I assure you. I felt comfortable that anyone else with sufficient expereience would understand any difference between a “martial art” and a “martial sport”. The fact that I made this assumption should tell you that I was approaching the person who started this thread as needing information and other people as being assumed to be well-informed and experienced and not needing to be coddled.

As I think I have intimated a couple of times you folks are pretty agry about a whole lot of things and you seem to want to lay it on my doorstep like I represent whatever it is that you are angry about. Since I don’t really know any of you, I guess you are free to be angry if thats what satisfies you. Iam hoping this is not the sort of welcome everyone gets when they sign-up here.

Suggestion?

Perhaps a disclaimer advising people that when they are contributing a thought or position on one of these threads they will be told in advance what to say and how to express themselves so as not to cue the bad feelings people have left over from other experiences. Just a thought. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

17

:llorar: Who keeps letting these fucking idiots on the board??? Hapkido does not equal the deadly force. You think you’re mature enough or do you think you’re to above being mature? Offense is taken because I don’t believe you realize what board you are on. I will tell you that you’re rhetorical pretense is giving me a headache.

This is the first time I’ve actually met a Hapkido elitist (not exactly true). I’ve been around the art for about 2 decades. I’ve met people from all walks of life, that believe in many things about Hapkido, but this is a first. I understand what you are saying but you’re being condescending in your approach, not to mention you are giving a slight spin to it which is probably just regurgitated (sp?) from your own personal philosophy if not from your Kwa ja nim (sp?).

Anywho…I don’t agree with your sentiments on this one Bruce. Interesting analysis but you’ve got to be fucking kidding me. I’ve met 4 “Grandmasters” (eyes rolling…nice guys, but 4!?) and none of them have spouted out this garbage.

18

Bruce, if your posts are parody, and I can hardly read them as being anything else, they’re exceedingly good. You’ve nailed a certain type of self-righteous, elitist asshole character in your persona and exaggerated it until it’s genuinely funny. Kudos. And I admit freely you got me properly with that first couple of posts of yours, I genuinely thought you were being serious.

19

If it is a joke, I know at least 2 hapkido-ists who would like the punch him in the bladder for giving their art a bad name.

20

Everybody who thinks Bruce is being a stuck up elitist raise your hand!!!