how were they slaves
Well, they existed under the fuedal system. They were forced to work on someone elses land for the food they were given to eat. They basically didn’t have anything that the Japanese or their own nobles couldn’t take away at a whim. And the fact that the nobles probably consider the peasents their property, makes them pretty much slaves.
<marquee>Dragon , Snake , Tiger , Leopard , Crane. R.M.F.A.F.T.A.T.! </marquee>
Do you have something i can read on this? and congratz on light heavyweight
Sensei Mak, are you unfamiliar with the feudal system?
no but i want to know what literature he is reading about this subject
Basically any general history reference on Okinawa, like the encyclopedias.
Even the more in depth Okiawan histories I have read rarely have anything more than a passing reference to karate, and almost nothing notable about individual peasents. They evidently were far too busy to lead eventful lives.
From what I can tell the peasents were almost as bad of before the Japanese took over things. The weapons ban wasn’t anything new, the Okinawan noble had instituted it long before, the Japanese just extended it. The nobles weren’t really effected by the occupation, if you can call it that. The Japanese bascially wanted some tribute, the nobles keep their lands and their soilders. Japan even let Okinawa pose as indepentent in dealing with the Chinese. The peasents had to work even harder to make up for the rice and what not that was going to Japan.
<marquee>Dragon , Snake , Tiger , Leopard , Crane. R.M.F.A.F.T.A.T.! </marquee>
Here is a starting point.
http://www.okinawakarate.com/enmapsite/history/history.html
Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html
I did read the Weaponless Warriors by Richard Kim years ago and I’ll keep my comments pithy because we’ve already proved on this thread that my memory is not perfect.
I recall that it involved a lot of stories about various Okinawan martial artists, some who came from poor families. I’ve seen columns by Kim in various martial arts publications and the theme generally seems to be, master x with his knowledge of kata stopped bully y when the latter swung at him with no warning, by effortlessly avoiding or grabbing his strike, such is the glory of Karate, no source mentioned.
Its evident I have a more serious bone to pick. Kim advised John Corcoran and Emil Farkas on Okinawan karate when they wrote “The Original Martial Arts Encyclopedia, Tradition-History-Pioneers” (revised in 1993) which is generally a good book dispite its efforts to kiss up to every martial artist trying to make it in the movie business. (pp. 89, 279, 292-294) On p. 186 the following howler appears. [My original comments are in brackets]
"A Japanese military expedition in 1609 ended Okinawan autonomy. The subjugated Okinawans were again denied weapons. In clashes with the victors, the Okinawans used the only weapons they possessed, their bare hands and feet. [I don’t think they would be that dumb]
Okinawans, especially the owners of property, trained diligently to make their hands and feet into weapons in order to protect their lives and property. Martial arts experts never exchanged their techniques with other experts; [Never? how does Kim know, was he alive in 1640?]therefore the development of fighting techniques proceeded in secret. At night, Okinawans went to caves or mountain hideouts [Never evidently in their backyards] and trained, using the trees as their enemies.
on the trunk and shoots of the tree called “gajimaru” (banyan tree) they practiced jump kicks, kicks, punching and chopping and hardened their fists. [No padding?] The “kakidameshi” was a fight to the death between two experts. Relatives of the slain expert would never seek revenge because they were ashamed to be seen. [Never, and like they wouldn’t even go outside?] Many techniques were developed at the expense of human life. [Nice thought Richard, but once again do you have any actual proof beyond supposition?]
Gaining little from such disunited resistance, the various Okinanwan ch’uan fa groups and tode societies banded together in 1629; the result was a new fighting style, a combination of Okinawa-te and chuan fa called simply te. During this period, and after, many Okinawans were secretly sent to China to learn. [Okay we have the Okinawa resistance story again and the writer, Richard Kim as told to Corcoran seems to be channeling this group’s business minutes.]
Such famous Chinese as Saifa, Seiunchin, Ason, Waishinzan, Ananku, Chinto, and Kusanku either taught the Okinawans or provided inspiration by their deeds. [In other words we really don’t know who did what, inspire by their deeds, come on]
The third book of the Oshima Hikki, a reliable chronicle, mentions that a shipwreaked Chinese boxer named Ko Sokun (Kung Hsiang-Chun) with a group of followers introduced in 1692 a special kind of martial art to Okinawa. It uses not the term karate, but the word kumiai-jutsu meaning ‘fighting technique.’
At any rate, a monument to karate [more precisely some fighting art] exists at the foot of Chuzan Castle (Shuri Castle) containing written evidence that the Chinese lion and tiger schools of boxing were brought to Okinawa. (Written accounts of the development of karate are rare; one of the few is a an 1830 book entitled Gokansen Tode Ko, or Okansen Karate Ko, by Sennan Choho.)
[Translation: not until I get to the Oshima Hikki are my stories connected to any evidence, that tree kicking stuff, just take my word for it, after all it sounds like someone could have done this.]
Ok I’ve let my sarcasm out of its cage, time to reign it in again.
I agree that Kim can be…creative. The main reason for bringing him up was his acknowledgement of the Chinese connection between karate and kung fu systems. That connection and influence has never been denied by people who were honest about the origins and formations of karate. Visiting dignitaries{these would be Chinese nobles and court officals,{{pretty much the same thing}}} have been attributed with many of the kata found in Okinawa. Wheather they were tought on the island or to men having previous training who went to mainland China is not really mentioned.
Now, open resistance I haven’t heard before, interaction and isolated cases of self defense against moody, boored or drunken samurai types I have heard of, finding a relable source might prove problematic. What samurai is going to report losing to a lowly Okinawan? What Okinawan is going to write down evidence he was ina fight with legal holders of authority? And training was just as backyard as it has been everywhere else. Yes, usually at night, don’t want to show off what your doing, and pretty dang busy during the day earning a living somehow, sort of like most martial artists now. Work during the day, train during the evenings/nights.
Punisher, the time period during which teaching started becoming more open was right around the turn of the century. This is postal fudal erra, with still only those who could afford not to be in the fields all day getting a chance to train. Nobility were the ones with the training. Aso the the five big kobudo weapons, the ones I think most likely to see use were the staff, considered a good weapon throughout the world and not below the use of higher ranking citizens and the sai. The sai also seems very likely to see employ, the Japanese used the Jitte, a very similar weapon{yes, I know they were not identical and usages would have varied}. A sai could be tucked away under the rather large peices of clothing often worn by traditional folks, at least enough it would be hard to recognize right off. Chucks are yes, a very high risk weapons that require a high degree of skill to employ, the tonfa is a practical design, similar to the old police batons and the kama, its a hand sickle, very good weapon to have. The origins of kobudo though, I’m not very familar with though, so I don’t know how strongly they are attributed to the weapons ban, occupation and the full formation of karate. It seems that sai and bo forms were most often taught when older instructors transmitted their skills, leading me to believe they were the most often, or perhaps only, two weapons used.
{edited for spelling}
Edited by - Kail on June 17 2003 16:52:20
damn i like this thread
Hi Kail:
As for open resistance that’s why I included the Richard Kim inspired quotation. It features such a claim and this thread can’t be revisionist if there is nothing to revise. 
I’m sure that an occasional Okinawan peasant had a dust up with a occasional samuri but I doubt the creation of karate was caused by such situations as verses a generalized need for self defense. I don’t think anyone denies Chinese influence on Okinawan karate, the question is when did the majority of the influences that we see today take hold?
I’ll post more on this subject using Bishop, but the revisionist answer is that the major Chinese influences are more recent than 1800. The 19th century Okinawan masters were more influenced by their own trips to China then from Chinese masters who had visited Okinawa several generations previously. This makes Okinawan karate less “ancient” then previously supposed, and in the martial arts ancient lineage is generally considered good so the more recent past get short shrift.
Well, the Shotokan stressed that karate has no relationship with Chinese Kung Fu. Judge for yourself
Shotokan is certainly harder and less circular compared to its Wado-ryu and Goju-ryu cousins but I find it hard to believe that it has no roots in China.
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day’s rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope’s end I rode and to heart’s breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!
FWIW, the “Shorin” in Shorinryu is written with exactly the same two characters as the Chinese “Shaolin.”
I was reading the paperback edition of Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith’s book “Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts” (Kodansha International, Tokyo, 1969, 1980) on Okinawan Karate and I have three reactions.
Their information is fairly general, they carefully qualify their statements (something the authors of the Original Martial Arts Encyclopedia should have done) and there is some interesting information in their book on weapons and the older physical training methods. (see especially page 62 for something called a “lever bar” which I had never seen before but which looks pretty practical)
Here is some of the better quotes from this now dated book. I don’t agree with everything they say but its interesting to read.
“Okinawa, a word that means ‘rope in the offing,’ is a fitting name for this rough and beautiful island, which is thin, knotted, and looks like a rope that has been carelessly tossed into the sea.” (p. 57)
"As a result of this [1669] prohibition on weapons, Chinese combat methods were studied and practiced clandestinely. Gradually empty hand styles took on distinct Okinawan influences. These styles became known as Okinawan te or simply te meaning ‘hand’–an important weapon in this combat form. This innocuous name helped maintain the secrecy of the instruction, which, according to the differences in regions and teachers, developed into three main styles. The te developed at Shuuri received the strongest influence from the External System, and that developed at Naha derived from the Internal System of China. The te developed at Tomari was a mixture of both external and internal influences. Accordingly, the Shuri te was primarily offensive; while the Naha te tended to be somewhat defensive. Naha te included grappling and throwing–tactics excluded in other original styles. [ed note. Naha, Shuri, and Tomari were geographically not more then several miles from each other so describing their differences as regional is an exageration, given their geographic closeness they may have not been the quite distinct styles that are typically described.]
Although the government prohibited the production and use of weapons, the developers of te ingeniously managed to apply five basic weapons to their system, to be used in the postures characteristic of empty-hand styles: the bo, a nearly six-foot staff; the sai, a short-forked metal instrument; the kama, a sickle; the tui-fa, also an agricultural device used primarily as a handle for a millstone; and the nunchaku, a universal-hinged wooden flail [ed note: and present day dork tool and wanna be magnet, I mean have you seen all the idiots who buy them with no real training in order to learn how to spin chucks?] All of these instruments have southeast Asian origins and are not indigenous to Okinawa, though with time the methods of employment by Okinawans took on distinctively Okinawan characteristics.
Two primitive weapons are worthy of mention, though they did not become highly systematized due to the fact that they are not used in the manner of empty-hand te style. The first of these is the suruchin, a composite weapon consisting of a short length of rope weighted at both ends; the weights could be whirled in various arc patterns and stuck against an enemy, to be retrieved for continuation of action if necessary. A style od combat known as timbei made use of two weapons. One, the to-hai, was a small circular shield of wood or of leather stretched on a wooden frame; it contained a small peephole through which the operator watched his enemy. Used with the shield was the heram a short wooden daggerlike instrument, which was also used in harvesting rice." (pp. 58-59)
“Rokushakubo is the name of an innocuous–looking weapon as well as a system of fighting. in Japanese roku means ‘six’ shaku is a measurement unit of about one foot in length, and bo means ‘staff’. Thus as its name implies it is a kardwood polelike weapon about six feet in length. As an art it grew within te, adapting from Chinese prototypes basic principles and then developing its own native characteristics. The first of these is a matter of design. Continental Chinese staffs usually are of an equal diameter the full length of their body. Okinawan rokushakubo, however, generally have tapered ends: diameters range from between one inch and two inches. This was done to provide a more centralized focus in striking the opponent’s body. Roksushakubo use depends entirely upon a knowledge of te.” (p. 64)
“The nunchaku, a harmless looking object, appearing more like a toy then a weapon, originated as a southeast Asian agricultural flail… . As a combat system subordinate to te, the art of the nunchaku owes its technical excellence almost entirely to Okinawan endeavors.” (p. 64)
“The sai is a vicious-looking, short metal weapon with a long history. Found in India, China, Indo-China, [ed note: Vietnam etc] Malaya, and Indonesia, its presence on Okinawa probably derives from migrations from any one or more of these sources. Evidence exists which favors Indonesia as a place of origin. Its design prototype may be seen in the trisula or trident-shaped weapon of ancient times. Ancient Indonesian civilizations on Sumatra and Java, which had contact with Okinawa, used the weapon in their combat systems.” (p. 65)
“Kama (Sickle) The agricultural sickle haas been used as long as man has grown rice. Seen in a number of different forms all over southeastern Asia, it has from earliest times undoubtedly served as an efficient weapon in emergencies. On Okinawa the sickle is called a kama and was probably brought there during the numerous migrations from the Asian continent. It was not long before it was used as a weapon. [eds note: notice this unsupported assumption, how would they know?] Kama tactics are primarily Okinawan, following along the lines of te postures and movements. Some modifications had to be instituted in order that the operator would not wound himself during manipulation of the weapon.” (p. 67)
“Tui-Fa (Handle) Early Okinawans, at work grinding grain by the millstone, were nonetheless determined to continue their clandestine practice of te. The wooden handle normally wedged into a hole in the side of the millstone served their combat purpose well” (p. 67)
I believe that Shotokan would have chinese roots. If I remember correctly, One of Funakoshi’s masters was Itosu who taught Shuri-te. This system has ties to chuan’fa. I will have to dig deeper to see which system of chinese to be certain.
Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html
Yes, Funakoshi was a student of Itosu(1830-1915). He[Funakoshi] was only one of two students that Itosu appointed to the title of “Shihanshi” or “Protege.” The other student was Kanken Toyama, who was assistant to Itosu at Okinawa Teacher’s College (1907-1915) and later founded the Shudokan in Japan. Unlike Funakoshi(founded Shotokan), Toyama never claimed to create a new style. Rather, he sought to preserve the tecniques and lineage of Itosu.
Itosu’s teacher was Sokon Matsumura(1797-1889), who studied under Tode Sakugawa. Around 1830, Matsumura also studied Shaolin Chuna-fa for several years in China before returning to Okinawa. He is recognized for organizing Shuri-te and was given the title of “Bushi” by the King of Okinawa.
Yeah…yeah…something like that RM. Actually I wasn’t sure if the Chinese influence was White Crane or not. GM Robert Trias, who was also a Shuri-ryu stylist, talked about White Crane in his art, but I didn’t know if it was Hsing-i influenced or something that was taught through the Shuri-te school.
Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html
That’s a good question.
I really don’t know anything about white crane.
I study from Itosu’s line and we have some forms (Go Pei, Ahm Hak(jinto), Jutte, etc.) and techniques that include crane stances. I don’t know if the crane stances were native to Okinawa or from Crane Chuan-fa arts. This is just my observation to add to this discussion.
R. McLain
I will input my thoughts on Shorin-ryu as it is the style that I study most actively and have devoted a good deal of my time to researching.
First of all there are four different major lines of Shorin-ryu karate.
Matsubayashi-ryu: This style is founded my Shoshin Nagamine who was a student of Chotoku Kyan (reportedly only very briefly) of Shuri-te, Ankichi Arakaki and Taro Shimabuku (both seniors students of Kyan), Chokki Motobu of Tomari-te but if you know anything about Motobu he really made up his own system more than adapting anyone elses, Kodatsu Iha (again very breifly) of Tomari-te, and Chojin Kuba (a close friend of his family who trained him for about a year before sending him to Chotoku Kyan and his students to train) of Tomari-te. He also is said to have met Chojun Miyagi on several occasions and there are aspects of Goju-ryu in some of his katas. Matsubayashi-ryu has changed significantly from it’s Tomari and Shorin roots and is from my experience a very hard style that focuses on many gross muscle movements and has very powerful and angular blocking techniques and strikes.
Kobayashi-ryu: Kobayashi-ryu is descended from the lineage of Yasutsune “Anko” Itosu who was a disciple of Sokon “Bushi” Matsumura and possibly other chinese influences since many of the kata he designed are very similar to some of the movements I have seen in Hung Gar and White Crane kata. He is designed the five Pinan (or Heian in Japanese) kata and the katas Passai Sho and Kusanku Sho. He also trained Gichin Funakoshi along with another of Matsumura’s students Yasutsune Azato. The style was then passed on to Chosin Chibana who’s only teacher was Itosu and retained the style in it’s entirety and taught it unfailingly for most of his life. Chibana was considered one of the greatest Okinawan karateka of his time and though there are no records of him actually taking part in many kakidameshi (challenge matches, these were usually not to the death as was previously stated but merely friendly bouts to test the skill of one against the other and hardly ever ended in someone getting seriously injured). These were very popular at the time and though there is no record the fame of Chibana would have made it very hard for him to escape kakidameshi. It has also been stated by some souces that Itosu taught two versions of his karate. One he taught to his school students and one to his actual karate students and it has also been surmized that Chibana though Chibana probably learned both forms he only taught the watered down school boy version. I seriously doubt this however. The current master of this style is Shugoro Nakazato who has changed many of the more smooth flowing motions that emphasize the circle (especially the blocks) into more straight hard and angular motions it is however, despite these recent changes and a continued emphasis on sport competition, mostly unchanged from what Itosu taught.
Shobayashi-ryu: This is the style I study so I will try to be as unbiased as possible but I apologize in advance if anyone percieves a bias in my writting. The current grandmaster of this style is Eizo Shimabukuro who was taught karate by Chotoku Kyan his primary teacher who he studied with from 1937 until 1943, he also trained simultaneously from 1938 on with Chojun Miyagi of Goju-ryu whom he trained with until 1943. In 1943 O’sensei Shomabukuro traveled to Osaka to live. Here he was taught by Chokki Motobu where he probably learned the Naihanchi kata and learned Yakusoku (or two man) Kumite training).In 1948 he returned to Okinawa and opened his first dojo and has since taught karate for 53 years. In 1955 O’sensei Shimabukuro recieved instruction from Zenryo Shimabukuro (no relation) who was Chotoku Kyan’s best student. In 1961 when he began be become concerned with changes he was percieving in the kata he went to Chosin Chibana for instruction where he may also have learned Naihanchi kata and definately did learn the Pinan kata. It has been stated that O’sensei Shimabukuro already knew Passai Sho and Kusanku Sho but as kyan only knew and taught Kusanku Dai and Passai Dai I have no idea where he would have previously learned these kata. O’sensei Shimabukuro also learned Kobudo from Shinken Taira but it is indefinate when this was but it was probably after he returned to okinawa in 1948. He also learned karate from his older brother Tatsuo Shimbuku who was the founder of Isshin-ryu and 20 years his senior it was most likely Tatsuo who introduced O’sensei to Kyan and Miyagi. Our style is characterized by it’s unique use of a very circular middle block that is identicle to that used in the Goju-ryu Sanchin and it’s generally more circular and higher stances (for mobility) than other Shorin-ryu styles. Makiwara training is also HEAVILY emphsazied and outside conditioning (i.e. weight lifting) is required.
The last style is Matsumura Seito Karate: This style was created by Hohan Soken who was reputedly taught by his uncle Nabe Matsumura who was taught by Sokon Matsumura. However due to the kata that this style teaches there are very obviously other influences than these. Hohan Soken also became somewhat senile in his old age and there has been a ridiculous amount of in-fighting and politics in the years after Soken’s death. The style has changed significantly in recent years and some of the kata are almost completely different from what was originally taught by Soken. The style heavily emphasizes high natural stances and is very rough and modernized in it’s current form. However before the aforementioned in-fighting it was a very natural and easy style with many powerful and circular movements. They also teach a kata called Hakutsuru meaning white crane and it their version (the original and unaltered one that is) was almost identicle to a white crane kung-fu demonstration I saw once. It is obvious from this kata and several others that Sokon Matsumura did indeed study White Crane kung-fu either in china or from someone on Okinawa but since Matsumura predates many of the recorded teachers of white crane on okinawa it is likely he learned it in one of his many travels to China.
Hope this has been interesting for everyone sorry for being a little long winded but it’s a very deep topic. I have also recently come across references to an art on okinawa called Gengkosu which predates te and is said to be almost 900 years old. I do not have any historical or scholarly information to back this up though so I don’t know if there is any truth about it.