Could Sir please deign to post photos of the two techniques so we can compare?
Straight ankle lock
http://bjj.org/techniques/erintoughill/t2-4/4e.jpg
Heel hook
http://img1.sports.krs.yahoo.com/fighter/column/20050503114154162.jpg
Too lazy to learn how to post pictures. Just go to google and do an image search (that’s what I did).
Thank you, sir, but I was more thinking of the difference between Achilles Tendon Hold and Straight Ankle Lock, just so I can see if ICY and I are on the same page.
And just for laughs and winces, here’s Frank Shamrock hurting some poor guy with the heelhook: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1354847327860627699&q=heel+hook
Oh. There was an article in Grappling magazine a few months ago about leg locks which went over the differences. I’ll see if I can find it online…
I thought the straight ankle lock was also about tearing the muscle that runs along the front of your shin. I feel a pretty good ‘stretch’ in that one after fighting those for awhile, on the right side anyway, as left ankle is so weak it’s a quick pop and tap.
I like to do the achilles with that reverse grip, so if you’re taking the lock on your right side, you slip your left arm under their leg and grab your right bicep, putting your right hand on top on their shin, very very tight grip. That is some brutal pain right there.
The achilles and straight ankle lock look basically the same.
With one you’re trying to submit them via forearm to the achilles tendon.
With the other, you’re trying to submit them by bending their foot downward so far that tendons or bones break.
To go for the ankle, instead of the achilles tendon, you move your forearm lower, closer to their ankle and lean back so that their foot bends down.
Same side heel hook beats ankle lock.
Cross-body (inside) heel hook beats same-side heel hook (and virtually everything else).
Cross-body heel hooks are the most damaging heel hooks, ICY I don’t know why you think differently but you must have been taught wrong.
A few months ago I (stupidly) decided to not tap to an ankle lock while rolling. I had a grip on the guy’s gi but I was laying back so it hurt like a bitch but it didn’t feel like anything was going to break. After 20 seconds or so I finally managed to sit up fully and work my way out. The muscle on the front on my shin hurt like a bitch anytime I put pressure on it in the wrong spot for about six weeks afterwards.
I don’t tap to anything because it hurts.But a couple people I roll with can still tap me on what you guys are calling an achillies lock.Not because my achillies is in pain, or being damaged.But because if I let it go and go and go… and they are good, so they have my leg entwined enough that I cannot get out… it sure starts to feel like my shin bone is bending.I tell myself it’s only my imagination, but when a strong man knows how to secure it perfectly and use the force of his opunching his hips forward(basically the power he’d use in a deadlift) I believe he can shatter my shin bone.Though it’s never happened, so I can;t be sure.But I once felt as some of you do, I felt that way about a bicep crush too.One fractured forearm bone later and now I’m not so sure…I distinguish between an achillies crush and a shinlock.I could define them, but we all got our own definitions.I don’t need to add to the confusion.
PS I thought I knew leglocks when I did BJJ.Later I trained sambo and straight submission grappling.I then knew I didn;t know leglocks when I did BJJ.Because my teacher didn’t.Though that was years ago.Nowadays BJJers tend to know legs much better than then.
Cross-body heel hooks are the most damaging heel hooks, ICY I don’t know why you think differently but you must have been taught wrong.
No, I’ve realized I was just not thinking of the same technique, you’re right. Outside heel hook to me means attacking the outside of the knee, from whatever angle, inside, attacking the inside (hence my reason for calling it a shitty submission).
SELFOWNED!
I don’t tap to anything because it hurts.But a couple people I roll with can still tap me on what you guys are calling an achillies lock.Not because my achillies is in pain, or being damaged.But because if I let it go and go and go… and they are good, so they have my leg entwined enough that I cannot get out… it sure starts to feel like my shin bone is bending.
I tap to it too, against guys strong enough and good enough that I can’t escape, but it IS because of pain, because I know it’s just going to hurt more later if I don’t tap, and I’m not going to get out. However, I’ll put my shin bone up against most people’s forearms…I figure their arm will break first.
The last time I tapped to an achilles lock the guy applying it was nearly seven feet tall, which granted him enough leverage to break shit. He could also do a thrusting choke inside guard from so far away it negated the armbar counter.
You are wrong, for reasons already elucidated in my post directly above yours. Please shut up.
Ok fine more drilling the move. Do you have any tips for how to go to heel hook position from ankle lock.
I will make one comment on straight ankle locks:
Most people cannot do them correctly. And that is why very few people tap to them. I used to think they were mostly a joke. Painfull but not really dangerous.
Then I had Oleg Taktarov put a few on me during sparring. Not cool at all. The pain short circuited my thinking. I tapped instinctively because I knew my foot was going to literally break off. I didn’t really have a chance to ask him how he was doing them. Also, I didn’t want to look like a fool for not knowing how to ‘properly’ apply them. Instead I just kept sparring and tried to watch my feet.
So a month or two later he was teaching class when Marcus was in Japan and he went over the basic footlock. Most people yawned. Probably because they never felt Oleg’s footlock.
The inherent difference between Oleg’s footlock and OTHER peoples footlock come in 2 areas. The first is a positional control difference and the second is a application difference.
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He controls BOTH feet before he applies any pressure. Most people just grab one foot and crank. It allows the other person to use the free foot to sit up and start a defense. Oleg controls both feet so you cant do anything other than sit up. He is obviously only really going for one foot but he doesn’t let you pull that other one back. I think he was sorta cupping behind the ankle of your ‘free’ foot. This allows him more time to actually set up his footlock before you can start your defense.
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He squeezes before he leans back. ‘Squeezing’ is not cranking. Squeezing is using your ‘Lat’ muscle and pulling your own elbow to your body FIRST. It is, in essense, the same effect as Arlovski leaning over ontop of the ankle. It crushes the space out of the lock.
So the steps go like this.
a) secure the wrap on the ankle.
b) secure the other foot somehow.
c) squeeze trapped foot with the lat muscle and eliminate any space.
d) begin to crank back and then lay over to the side almost in one motion.
Now I realize everyone has ‘their’ version of the ankle lock - as their teacher showed them - and by god it is the absolute final authority on the subject! Everyone else is wrong! Yeah yeah. Do whatever way you want. But if you are finding that the straight ankle lock isn’t getting the results you want maybe give these 2 ideas a try.
Let me qualify my statement: I am not an expert, but I was taught this move by Daizo Ishige, who i would consider an expert grappler.
c) squeeze trapped foot with the lat muscle and eliminate any space.
i was taught the same way, with a little more detail at this step. Essentially, you roll your shoulder forward and draw it back against the toes. Then, you roll your shoulder back and down. concurrently, you are closing the elbow. I geuss im say i do more of a roll with my shoulder rather than a straight pull down.
Omega, I don’t think I’ve claimed to be a leg lock expert. That shouldn’t be assumed. Anyone assuming that random guys on the internet are experts deserves to get their shit popped for listening to them. Anyone that takes my advice over their coach’s deserves to have their shit popped. Anything i say is meant for people with actual instructers who they can present with the idea for further scrutiny BEFORE application in any real event. Or at the very least, people who are smart enough to try my shit out in practice of some sort, realize that it doesn’t work, and then discard it before running out and entering an ankle lock duel with the nearest sambo instructer.
Anyways, I’ve just never felt threatened by a srtraight ankle lock. Even when I’m talking about expert fighters, they just don’t bother me. I’ve had my ankle popped before and it really wasn’t too bad.
Do you have any tips for how to go to heel hook position from ankle lock.
I’ve been taught to lock the position by lacing the legs first to stop any rolling and keep them on their side and then just put the forearm under the heel. Alternatively, my instructer tells me to reach over and grab the heel with my far arm.
Really, though, I don’t see what trouble you’re having as the transition is pretty smooth.
Raynor,
I’ve had two of the three ligaments on the side of my foot ripped from a straight anklelock. I’ve seen people have broken feet from straight anklelocks. If the anklelock is done properly, it will injure you enough to keep you out of training for a while.
Mmm that helps, thanks for the input.
Johhny, I’ve got a question regarding that. What seperates the proper aanle lock you describe from whats usually seen? Even one of my coaches was involved in an ankle lock duel recently. Both ankle locks were completely ineffective and had to be ended by heel hook. I was also just ankle locked by a pro fighter who failed completely. I figure these guys know what they’re doing, so whats the deal?
Maybe they don’t know what they’re doing…
The problem with straight ankle locks is that people often don’t have them on correctly before trying to make the guy tap. There’s a few things that need to be done with an ankle lock to make it effective:
- Make sure the instep of the foot is under the armpit i.e. you should be affecting his foot, not his shin.
- Make sure the elbow of the arm holding the foot is squeezed against your side to secure the foot properly.
- Control your opponent with your legs so that you stop him mounting or coming on top.
Points 1 and 2 are very important and the steps that let most people down. Grab the foot, pull it up HARD and tight under the armpit. Squeeze your elbow to your body. Then the lock should be more effective.
I think that what happens a lot of the time is that people will apply the lock but because they’re laying on the arm that’s controlling the foot, they don’t have everything locked properly, and because of their own weight it’s too difficult to adjust so they think “Ah, What the hell, I’ll try it anyway” and so the lock is ineffective.