This is not about KMA=2000 years. So anyone who came here for perverse pleasure of TKD/KMA bashing. Please go away.
Now, I know few people who have actually seen Taekyon commented that it is a folk game to unbalance opponent and is not a martial arts. But this description sounds very much like pushing hand, a training method in CMA. Can anyone explain what exactly involved with Takeyon?
http://media.putfile.com/tk200106201
http://media.putfile.com/1999_end_final
http://media.putfile.com/demo7826
http://media.putfile.com/1999_end_hwaemok
Ok, having posted these I think you will agree with me that tae kyun resembles Capoeira. It looks like a game where your objective is to have a rythmic kicking pattern and trip the guy once it is obvious his kicks are off balance.
First, it was spelled “Taekyon”.
Then it was spelled “Takeyon”.
If it is also spelled Tachyon, then I believe that is a highly advanced system of particle accelerators that can penetrate most Class 4 Shields with a steady barrage of quarks. Please consult Worf, Number 1, or any trekkie for more specific info.
waits for ban
I have never trained in the art but I have seen it in demonstrations and on TV programs when I lived in South Korea. It is spelled Taekkyon (a phonetization of Korean) my understanding is that it is a Martial art that pre dates TKD.
It is primarily a kicking art, but differs from TKD in that they allow lowline kicking and sweeps and I have heard that in Pusan Korea, which is at the southernmost tip of the country, that they have a system of Taekkyon that also includes joint manipulation.
As you could probably see it is somewhat rythmic and I have seen practioners swaying back and forth in rythm while saying “eek, eck” I don’t know what the significance of the sounds is, just what I’ve seen.
I know at some point it was a kind of game, I don’t know if it developed into a game to hide it’s techniques from occupying forces or if it developed from a game into fighting system to fight occupying forces.
I know that it was declared a cultural treasure by former South Korean president Kim Dae Jung and I have read that there have been only 2 westerners certified in the art. Not that the testing reqirement are that difficult to pass physically but I believe there is a lot paperwork and “thesis” writing that must be done in Korean.
You should try to contact DerAuslander here on Bullshido he is very knowledgeable of KMA and probably could give you a lot more.
If, by martial arts, you mean a formal system of battlefield combat such as the arts of the samurai…Taekyun does not fit your definition of martial arts…and I say your definition of martial arts is limited and poor…by such a definition, Karate, even karate as hard core as Kyokushin, is not a martial art…Dave Lowry wrote a couple of good articles on this…
It’s a folk game like boxing and wrestling are a “folk game”. If anything, this, along with Ssireum, is the least “Bullshido” of the Korean arts…it’s trained in a resisting fashion, features nothing in the way of solo forms…
And while it may have been a folk “game”…there is evidence that at various points in time, skill in Taekyun was considered a measure of military skill…
It looks nothing like “Push Hands”…unless you mean by push hands somebody usually ends up on their asses afterwards…
Looks nothing like capoeria to me…
Miguksaram-hyung knows more than I…and I believe Kestrel is actually a Taekyun practitioner…he used to post here…
I think they thought this because in the 3rd video the guys move around rhythmically during the whole kind of like in capoeira.
I agree. This is not capoeira. First clip appear to be making effort to make takeyon look like capoeira like art but actual game is nothing like capoeira.
Moreover, the game looks almost exactly like pushing hand. In Kung Fu, they have a competitve game (training method) where two player try to flip each other using hand push and leg sweep. Grappling is restricted to one hand only so to prevent two players being locked like sumo. It is much consistent with actual Korean Martial history which was part of CMA lineage.
What I want to know is the justification for occasional use of high kick as well as thrust kick before the fight becoming close quarter. In pushing hand under modern rule, such move is not wise because it would be a target of leg grab. Does takyeon ban hand going below opponent lower body? That is often the rule for old Pushing Hands and from MA point of view, it is better.
In CMA, high standard in PH is equated with good understanding of “root”. If someone is well trained in form then the principle of “root” can be translated into manifestation of good martial technique. So by itself, it can’t be called martial arts or martial sport. Still, thank you. Though this can’t be called a “proof”, it still give me better picture of Korean heritage.
Taekyun. Not Takeyon.
It looks nothing like push hands! Where are you getting that from?
Bro, no one denies that there is a CMA influence in Korean arts, especially those of the Yi dynasty, but where the hell are you getting a Chinese influence for Taekyun?
Justification for high kicks?
They hurt.
Justification for thrust kicks before closing?
Why close if you can knock your opponent on his ass…
Do not equate Taekyun with push hands. There is no equivalency. It is a foolish move which will lead to little in the way of understanding.
Bullshit. It’s not better. Stop making foolish comments like that. If the kick is there, go for the kick.
What does this have to do with Taekyun and how does it give you a better picture of Korean heritage?
huh? Do you know the whole deal of “push hands”. As I said, what i saw in the second clip is almost identical to what i did in pushing hand. Since I don’t know the extent of your knowledge of pushing hand, can you tell me what you consider to be such obvious difference between pushing hand and Taekyun, Taekyon, or Taekkyon (all valid google term). As of “it is better”, i didn’t mean pushing hand is better. I meant the rule prohibiting leg grab is better from training point of view. Btw, you are not those who are obsessed with 2000 year stuff are you.
When I said it resembled Capoeira I meant in a rythmic fashion like what KSwolf said. There are a bunch more clips of taekyun on that site.
Yes. They’re completely different arts of different origins not sharing the same deliniation. Similar concepts do not mean the arts share a same root.
Bla bla bla…then push hands must inherently be superior!
Who said you couldn’t grab the leg in Taekyun. There are a multitude of sweeps that benefit from trapping the leg.
Yup. Absolutely obsessed. After all, I am a reincarnated Hwarang warrior…
While the standard mythology does not apply to to TKD, HKD, and other modern Korean arts…guess what…Taekyun is old. It’s roots may actually be 2000 years old, though I wouldn’t bet on it.
Wait a min. This is another bullshido. I ask you to list difference between PH and TY in term of what it is, i.e. competition rules and so on. I certainly accept that the PH forms are probably absent in TY. Because what I saw is identical to what I did in pushhand, I’m guessing that the TY rules are almost identical. If the rule is identical or almost identical then I’m abslutely justified in saying that TY as a game is identical to PH.
Secondly, China is not a mythtical empire located in Australia or Africa. It is right next to Korea. Look at the Korean swords and armour, architectures, Buddhism/Confusianims, not to mention the fact that Chinese was the official language of Korean court before Japanese takeover. Korean kingdom(s) has been a tribute state of Chinese Dynasty one way or another for almost whole of 2000 history. Send an email to someone specialising in Korean history, preferably westerners in university department to check it out. At this point, I won’t assert that TY’s origin is CMA. However, your positive assertion that TY has nothing to do with CMA or Chinese culture is utterly buffling and a clear sign of obsession to Korean Identity politics.
Oh, lastly, my reference to “leg grab” is about leg take down seen in olympic wrestling and judo. I believe leg trap or leg sweep are not described as “grab”. Are you fainting ignorance just so that you can flame?
If someone can list the competition rules of TY, I’m very graceful.
Ha.
Look, bro, I’ve grasped that English is not your first language. So I’m not gonna go off on you cuz it doesn’t seem like you’re understanding what I’m saying on a lot of these things.
EDIT: I changed my mind. You accuse me of being ignorant and then make ignorant claims of your own.
Did you kick people in the head in push hands? Push Hand forms are completely absent in TK. Were you required to use rhythmic stepping motions?
Thank you. I did pass 5th grade geography.
Korean Buddhism is very distinct from Chinese Buddhism.
Chinese the language of the Korean court?
Bullshit!
What dialect? Mandarin? Cantonese?
The spoken Korean language is and always has been distinct. It comes from a completely different linguistic tree, and is not associated with Mandarin Chinese or any other Chinese dialect. Was there an exchange of vocabulary? Of course. However, even the most formal levels of Korean speech were Korean. Nice try.
Perhaps there is a root to your Korean Konfusion though.
Before King Sejong invented the Hangul alphabet, Chinese characters were used for writing in Korea. This continued to be considered the higher form of WRITTEN LANGUAGE in Korea for several years, but the spoken language was always Korean, never Chinese. The Japanese occupation did little to halt the use of Hanja (Chinese characters), since the Japanese used these themselves in their own Kanji. What the Japanese occupation did attempt to put an end to was the use of the Korean alphabet, Hangul. Please get your history straight before you try to challenge.
Sure…why not…I’d just be sending an e-mail to myself or one of my professors, fool.
Regardless, Korea’s proximity to China doesn’t make Korea Chinese. Was there cultural overlap? Hell yes, but it doesn’t mean that the Chinese get to take credit for everything in Korean culture.
Because you have no proof…no link, nothing…just a few minor similarities.
See, I can prove TKD’s origins because I can look at the original TKD forms, trace those back to Japan, and trace those back to Okinawa.
I can prove HKD’s origins by comparing it with Daito-Ryu. The techniques are glaringly similar.
You can’t do that with Taekyun. You cannot link it to any CMA, even if it your opinion it may bear some small superficial resemblance to push hands. The gross majority of techniques in Taekyun look nothing like push hands, are not trained like push hands, and are executed differently than push hands.
Bullshit. You made a claim, an assertion that Taekyun is derived from or related to CMA. You offered no proof other than you thought TK competition reminded you of push hands.
I said you were wrong. Instead of offering me proof that there is a connection between Taekyun and CMA, you just bitch and moan and call me a cultural bigot.
I’ll give credit where credit is due. I’ve said that TKD is Korean Karate and Shippal Gi is Korean Kung Fu (there’s your CMA connection, fool!), so when I say Taekyun is Korean, I’m not obsessed with identity.
That’s not a leg grab, that’s a takedown, and you should have clarified that in the first place. Regardless, I don’t see the point of your reference. Are you allowed to shoot for double leg take downs in Push Hands? Or are you talking about Shao Jiao?
I’m not “fainting” anything. I’m still very conscious, which is more than I can say for you.
A grab is a grab.
The word is grateful. Graceful is a ballerina…or…a Taekyun practitioner.
There are two kinds of Taekyun competition. In Daeguli, your goal is to knock your opponent over. In Matsugi, you must either knock your opponent over, or kick him in the head. Kicks to the legs, body, and head are allowed.
I practice push hands. I’ve seen taekkyon. Not the same thing. The use of “hands” in push hands might tip y’all off, since the root of push hands is the crossed hands position and drills from there to learn to redirect force – in the hands. There are leg and stance games too, but they don’t look like those Takkyon clips at all.
Taekkyon forms I’ve seen do bear some resemblance to Tai Chi in the kind of flowing movement displayed, but that doesn’t spell a historical connection to me at all.
DerAuslander, have you heard anything about a Taekkyon style from the Pusan area that also included hand techniques such as joint manipulation? I think I’ve seen some information about it on a website regarding Korean martial arts but I can’t find it now.
And thank you for passing on more factual information regarding Korean martial arts. Having lived there and China I get what you’re saying.
“Did you kick people in the head in push hands?”
Senior instructers in my old school were doing friendly PH sparing match. When both were somewhat locked , then one guy, high kicked (tapped) the other guy.
There is a big difference between PH sparring done under modern competitiion rule and PH sparing done under traditional training format. Because it is very difficult for beginner or intermediate player to flip opponent, push out is dominant. But this somewhat miss the point of PH. PH sparing in training is often done somewhat cooperatively in the sence that lot of banned moves are used and/or both side agree not to resort to push out like in sumo. And there are different form of PH sparing to suit different CMA style. When I was starting out in Taichchuan, I thought PH was exclusive to tahichichuan. I was sooooo wrong.
Anyway, as I said in the beginning, the use of high and thrust kick puzzled me and you somewhat gave answer to that. Thanks. If someone can list the competition rule of TY, we can end this debate.
As of origin debate, you said “You made a claim, an assertion that Taekyun is derived from or related to CMA”. The correct statement to make is that “Taekyun is Korean but it’s historical origin is unknown”. So it is perfectly valid to suggest that it may have CMA origin which may be proved (or disproved) later. This is why your obsession is buffling.
As of use of Chinese in Korea, go and find old/ancient Korean document. It is all written in perfect Chinese. The major reason why characters (hanja) was used for governance is that it is (still) excellent mean of communication between people who spoke different dialect or foreign languages not to mention the fact that it was regarded as a sign of educated governing elite. As of Buddhism, Korean (and Japanese) Buddhism is a part of Chinese Mahayana lineage. All scriptures were (and often still are) in Chinese translation of Sanskrit. The nature of Korean MA is unfortunately unknown due to lack of archival record but some suggest that it was a CMA style. Even some Korean alude to this theory as seen in some Korean film.
Anway, this Korean Identity debate is worthless.
Oh, feer flee to collect my Engrish. It is quite amusing to be honest. :icon_razz
I haven’t heard of anything about that, but I do have Song Duk Ki’s book on Taekyun which does include several joint locks.
.
And your point is?
Your point?
I already did. I don’t have a complete dilineation of the rules of the Korea Taekyun Association, but I gave you the jist. Regardless, vids of TK have been posted and they look nothing like Push Hands competitions…the fact that you insist on this tells me you’re looking for minor similarities and overlooking glaring differences.
How about you post up some rules for Push Hands? I’ve seen Push Hands competitions, I’ve seen Taekyun competitions. They are completely unsimilar. Even Eyebeams, a push hands competitor, has said the same thing.
The word is baffling. There is no such word as buffling.
You can assert that TK’s origins are in CMA all you want. PROVE IT TO ME. Until then, your assertions are empty, devoid of any evidence. Thus, I say, “nope, it’s Korean.”
Genius, did you even read what I said? Chinese characters were used, not the entire Chinese language. NO ONE WAS SPEAKING MANDARIN IN THE KOREAN COURTS OF THE DAY. The spoken language was still Korean, even in the Korean courts.
Not to mention that if you want to go this route, guess what…
THERE ARE NO CHINESE CHARACTERS FOR TAEKYUN USED IN KOREA.
There are Chinese characters for Kwon Bup, Taekwondo, Hapkido, you name it…none for Taekyun…that would certainly suggest the rural Korean origin for the art, rather than a governmental importation, such as Kwon Bup.
So what? Origin does not equate. Chinese Chan is not Korean Sun is not Japanese Zen. Go to a Korean temple. It’s very different from a Chinese temple, even though similarities do exist.
I’m not arguing with you that SOME KMA have their root origin in CMA. I can name several systems off the top of my head. Until you offer proof, or at least evidence, I’m going to continue to tell you that THERE IS NO CHINESE CONNECTION FOR TAEKYUN.
Give me solid evidence (not minor similarities), and I would be more than willing to re-evaluate.
Yup, because you don’t know what you’re talking about.
’
You know, that joke would be funny if your English wasn’t so bad to begin with.