Poekoelan bs cull

Why I no longer train Poekoelan

I trained Poekoelan for about 4 years and passed my green sash test (a middle rank in the system). I started back before their current location when they were running out of local theater. I have no idea what the art or the school is like now but here is what it was like back in my day (from my point of view).

  1. The school was heavily female dominated and had a large number of Lesbians in the upper ranks. As near as I can tell this had no impact on anything of significance. It just meant that it was likely that your instructor was a woman and not probably not interested in you if you were a man.

  2. That said, there was a lot of sleeping around. That is not really surprising. We are talking about a whole bunch of 20 somethings who were in pretty good physical condition with about an equal balance of men and women (mid to lower ranks), sweating all over each other and then going out afterwards because - well, who else are you going to hang out with when you spend so many hours practicing an art like this?

  3. In my day sparing was tough. I have boxing scars over both eyes from blows, broke my nose once and dislocated my shoulder. The most painful injury I ever took was a blow from a staff to my ulnar nerve. It still give me problems to this day (and I am in my late 40s). Tests were particularly tough with the testee fighting fresh fighter after fresh fighter to see if they could hold to their training when exhausted. I saw plenty of blood back in the day. Padding looked very much like modern MMA - light gloves with fingers free to grab and mouth guards - kicks and cups optional.

  4. Was there a lot of woo-woo? I wouldn’t say a lot. More than some arts less than others. I never felt pressured to believe the stories. I saw them like biblical parables - there was usually some sort of moral or ethical point. There was meditation (standard to most arts), breath control (it worked well for me) but nothing beyond that.

  5. Was there a cultish aspect to the school? Not that I could see. I mean if you think the boy scouts are cultish then sure. When I passed my green sash test I realized that I would have to devote even more time to the art if I wanted to advance. And I had other priorities. So I went into Janesa’s office and let her know that I thanked for what she taught me but I was done. She thanked me for being a good student, said I would be missed and that I was welcome back any time. That was it. Pretty weak for a “cult”.

  6. Is the art a good combat art? pfh I dunno. Even at my peak I would not have wanted to have taken on a trained MMA fighter one on one. But I have (unfortunately) gotten into a few tussles post Poekoelan and I was able to quickly over power my opponents. I am 6’2" and about 210 so maybe it would have been the same if I had not trained but I don’t think so. Who knows? I know when I was training I was in the best shape of my life and was having a great time. I learned solid boundaries and strengthened my discipline. All lessons I have valued in the last 20 years.

I really don’t know what it is like now but I have nothing negative to say about it from my day. I met some very good, very open minded, very kind and very positive people. I helped out with women’s self defense classes (which made me feel good). The price was a standard per month fee (camps etc. were separate). I didn’t feel like they were milking me just charging for reasonable things (uniforms, equipment etc.)

Z

I’m going to make this perfectly clear. If you come to this website and claim/speculate/accuse or present any form of information on the topic at hand, expect to be required to support your comments with evidence.

If you don’t, your posts will get shit-canned and your accounts banned.

[QUOTE=Bagua;2638569] The Poekoelan that went on over there was like nothing described in this thread, other than the system of promotion. This was a brutal combat art, and unlike MMA, the only rule was “kill or be killed.” [/QUOTE]

Really? Kill or be killed? Huh…

[QUOTE=Bagua;2638569]This thread is 4 years old, but in the event anyone is still viewing it, I wanted to correct a few presumptions regarding Poekoelan. I attended a martial arts tournament in Cleveland in the early ‘70’s, where I saw a skinny kid in glasses gracefully weave around every other black belt competitor and effortlessly carve them up. I also saw a cute little blond girl do the same thing to the women. She hit another girl in the face, causing blood to pour out of the eyes, nose and mouth. The boy was Bill Dobich and the girl was Barbara Niggel, and their teacher Willy Wetzel was present. In the mid 70’s, I moved to Youngstown, Ohio and studied with Dobich. The Poekoelan that went on over there was like nothing described in this thread, other than the system of promotion. This was a brutal combat art, and unlike MMA, the only rule was “kill or be killed.” Groin and throat strikes were not only allowed but encouraged. That’s the reason I eventually quit – class was more dangerous than walking through a ghetto in the middle of the night. My face was getting bashed in. I can’t comment on anything Barbara has done in subsequent years – I only saw her once in my life, back in that tournament, and maybe people have watered the art down since, but don’t blame the art. It’s nasty, full contact, stuff full of elbows, knees, and even biting. If you want to see how tough your BJJ or MMA or anything else is, go to Youngstown, Ohio and look up Bill or a guy named Ron Stevens. I wouldn’t wish Ron on my worst enemy. I’ve since moved onto studying the Chinese internal arts, (tai chi, bagua, hsing-yi) and have found that you don’t have to get crippled in training to learn how to defend yourself. These arts have saved my life in real combat situations, and that’s good enough for me.[/QUOTE]

Did you suffer one too many roundhouse kicks to the head?

I guess you either couldn’t be bothered to read my post which precedes yours or, you chose to ignore it and post your rhetorical bullshit anyway. Eitherway your post along with dome others has found it’s way to the sites shithole.

You’re fucking lucky I’m posting from my phone otherwise I may well have temp banned your account.

Do us all a favour and quit posting

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=Bagua;2638569]I attended a martial arts tournament in Cleveland in the early ‘70’s, where I saw a skinny kid in glasses gracefully weave around every other black belt competitor and effortlessly carve them up. I also saw a cute little blond girl do the same thing to the women. She hit another girl in the face, causing blood to pour out of the eyes, nose and mouth. The boy was Bill Dobich and the girl was Barbara Niggel, and their teacher Willy Wetzel was present. [/QUOTE]

I always love tales like this, where some martial artist completely outclassed every single person there. Somehow, it’s always years in the past though, and for some reason, nobody seems able to replicate the feat now.

I remember seeing some footage of Bill Wallace in the 80’s doing “full-contact karate” (now kickboxing) and over the years, my recollection of that footage had grown into Wallace being a complete monster in the ring. Had the chance to see it again recently on Youtube, and realized, yeah, it was an okay fight but nothing earth-shattering, and certainly not the complete domination I remembered it as.

I too grew up around the Youngstown, Ohio area and trained in Poekoelan beginning in the early 90’s…one of Dobich’s BB’s trained me. Seems silly when you read it but yes, “Bagua” is correct in his post. You fought and trained hard or you got knocked out, hurt, bled, etc…period. Small hand pads were all we wore, no other padding or protection and we wore shoes (if you got in a street fight you would not be barefoot). Elbows, knees,…eye, throat and groin strikes were part of your arsenal while fighting. It was MMA before MMA was big…unfortunately because it was a tough style to stay in more and more over the years people stopped working out or just simply were too injured to keep training hard and the style has somewhat diminished. There were no kids being taught just teens to adults and everyone fought hard or you quit.

First tournament held in Campbell, Ohio that I entered as a white sash (beginner) was around 91’…the fighting matches were 4 divisions (white, green, brown and black) and each fight was 3 minutes continuous fighting (no points, no breaking the fight unless you went out of the ring or could no longer fight). Most of everything was allowed except joint locks and eye gouges. My first opponent I hit with a spinning elbow to his head and almost knocked him out…he was staggering around and they had to use smelling salts on him. I won that fight. Some guy in the green division was kicked so hard across the face he had a “Fila” print on his face. ANother guy broke his ankle and was taken to the hospital. It was no joke in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s when Dobich was training a bunch of people and his BB’s were training others too.

Shame it has dwindled over the years…Poekoelan the way I know it would fit nicely within today’s society since MMA got so big. Poekoelan is a combat art…part combat, part art form so there were forms and other things you learned that helped with stamina, balance, strength, etc… I have never witnessed any other “style” like it over the past 21 years but the only thing closest to it is MMA style matches…

Rock Ape,
I read your post above but unfortunately I do not have any hard evidence from the 90’s…videos probably would be nice but I did not own a video camera then…I only have pictures from those tournaments in the 90’s and still stay in contact with a few other guys who fought in them too. ALthough I am in my upper 30’s now, I recently entered a few continuous fighting matches over the last few years that I found at one local tournament held twice a year and fought some younger opponents…a couple were training in MMA and good fighters. Probably around 8 total fights and I won them all…BUT I have to saw the older I get the looonger the healing is. Some clips are at thecalmdragon .com

hope that helps,
Tenang

[QUOTE=TexJohn;2638748]Really? Kill or be killed? Huh…[/QUOTE]

That is correct, yes. At least, for anyone who trained under Willy.
The short version is that Willy was an assassin for the Dutch during WWII. He passed himself off as a silat historian. His job was to infiltrate the various Indonesian rebel camps and to either assassinate the group leaders, or pass information to the Dutch. At the end of the war he pretty much found himself as a man without a country, and settled in the Pittsburgh area where he eventually opened his first school. Given his history of killing with his bare hands, it doesn’t seem so far fetched that he would have that philosophy. He never studied to win tournaments, he studied so he could kill people. It was his job, and to him, his duty. Many of his original students were returning Vietnam vets, so the kill or be killed philosophy was not unfamiliar to them. It could be argued that at the time, some of Willy’s students may have been among the most dangerous people around. The school gained some popularity and his student base expanded, but the philosophy did not. Willy was not what one would consider to be a nice guy. The fact is, he was pretty much an asshole. He hated it here in the states and resented his ex wives and didn’t even seem to like his kids very much. While the exact motive died with Willy, the common story was that it had to do with a tax return of all things, but for whatever reason he went on a rampage, it would seem determined to kill everyone in his family. He made the mistake of trying to start his rampage with Roy, who ended up killing him, concluding a bloody 20 minute fight in Roy’s house. In that fight there were two swords broken or bent, knives, and a set of nunchuks, which is what Roy finally used to choke Willy to death.
There are a couple of issues with the art today. The first being that Willy never identified anyone to take over the school as his replacement. Barbara who runs the Tulen school just sort of adopted that title for herself, even though Roy should have really been the one. While Barbara was a golden child of Willy’s, she has added many things to her teachings that were never part of Willy’s school.
That in and of itself is another problem within the art. Willy encouraged people to add in their own ideas and things from other arts. Then, to compound the problem even further, it’s speculated that Willy never really taught his full art to anyone, except maybe Roy. Generally a student would lean towards a specific animal style, and that’s what they would focus on. Then at some point if they were to teach, then they might have some knowledge of all the animal styles, but will have emphasized mainly one in their own practice.
I might have mentioned in another post that there is an effort to try and reunite as many of Willy’s original students as possible to consolidate the information and separate the wheat from the chaff. Hopefully we can distill all the of the information into an accurate record of Willy’s true teachings.
By the way, to clear up a couple of things, Willy never referred to his art as “silat”. His art was purely an empty hand art. That isn’t to say he never used or taught weapons, but they weren’t really a part of his art. His art was simply poekoelan.

Knowing how folks here like “proof”, here’s what I can offer for those interested.
This is a pretty accurate description of the art and Willy’s background: http://www.articledashboard.com/Article/POEKOELAN-TJIMINDIE-The-History/319469

And this web page talks about Willy’s death and a few other things:
http://malayarts.blogspot.com/2010/04/about-willy-wetzels-death-tell-your.html

Edit: BTW Tenang, if you’re interested, we have a conference near Pittsburgh coming up at the end of April, Dobich will probably be there, he was last year. Hit me up if you want the info.

To Taijidude:
thanks for the invite, I cannot attend this year. I was there last year and performed my kembang. Yes, Dobich will be there this year. …I am on the Community site too. I recently moved to Columbus and I have been in contact with some folks around the Delaware area. I need to try and stop out sometime soon. Look me up on the Community site…
-selemat-

That was you who did the kembang? Awesome. We were the group from Evolve MA. I think Dan may have mentioned that you recently moved here, although by name I wasn’t sure who you are. You’re in Grovetucky now, right? I’ll look for you over on the community.

Bloody fucking hell.

You know we like proof, you post conjecture from a websie that states:

the following version of the Poekoelan Tjimindie history as I have concluded.

Stop it.

Perhaps then you could tell me what you would consider to be unquestionable substantiation?

I kinda doubt it.

[QUOTE=taijidude;2677689]Perhaps then you could tell me what you would consider to be unquestionable substantiation?[/quote]Can you tell me where “as I have concluded” or “you post conjecture” made you leap to “unquestionable substantiation?”

Unlike you, I can explain my point. I can also deconstruct your “unquestionable substantiation” strawman.

I kinda doubt it.
You have doubt, I know you can’t explain that weird leap in “logic.”

Way to avoid the question. But OK, I’ll bite.

The author of the website in his own words spends a period of time doing research on a subject, (14 years according to him) and is honest enough to state that his research has led him to a “conclusion” about the history, and that makes the source suspect?
Then there are two questions.

Exactly what parts of MY comments are in question and needing “proof”?

Exactly what qualifies as “proof” of any kind?

I merely posted those links as substantiation of my claims.

[QUOTE=taijidude;2678354]Way to avoid the question. [/quote] Right back at you.

The author of the website in his own words spends a period of time doing research on a subject, (14 years according to him) and is honest enough to state that his research has led him to a “conclusion” about the history,
Untwist your panties. You do know this is a wordy definition of conjecture right? You don’t? Well, now you do.

and that makes the source suspect?
Really? I said it was suspect? No, I said it was conjecture. I said stop it because most bullshido posters will not accept random blogs and not sourced websites as proof. You’ve been here long enough to understand that small point.

Exactly what parts of MY comments are in question and needing “proof”?
Where did I say ANYTHING about your comments? I said something about that website being self admittedly full of conjecture or if that’s to hard “supposition.” You said

Knowing how folks here like “proof”, here’s what I can offer for those interested.
I said
You know we like proof, you post conjecture from a website that states
It is conjecture. If you need the definition I can get it for you. Sorry, that is not proof.

Exactly what qualifies as “proof” of any kind?
It needs to have sources that can be researched, by others, to verify the information.

I merely posted those links as substantiation of my claims.
I said nothing about your claims, I said something about your links.

Then I misunderstood your intent. As I stated, I only posted the links as some degree of substantiation of my claims. Perhaps “proof” wasn’t the right word, except as evidence that I wasn’t just pulling stuff out of my ass, that others who have also educated themselves on the matter have drawn similar conclusions.

Dear Reader,

Poekoelan Tjimindie Tulen embraces the path of compassionate balanced action, which includes practice, patience, purity, and perseverance. The art continues a lot of the traditions of original martial arts in Asia, combining respect for tradition, teachers, and personal growth with the discipline and benefits of physical fitness and self-defense. The likelihood a well-developed and well-trained Poekoelan Tjimindie Tulen martial artist will need to assert their martial skills in combat is extremely low, because the purpose and intention behind their training is focused on harmony and community–not on conflict, violence, and competition–thus the motto: “compassionate, balanced, action”.

Poekoelan Tjimindie Tulen is a martial art, not a sport. While many combative sports like various mixed martial arts, boxing, and wrestling potentially involve a disciplined path towards personal and/or spiritual growth, the focus of these sports is to compete and dominate. When the primary purpose and intention of an activity is to compete and dominate, the art is watered down, even diminished. Our conscious intentions as human beings and martial artists profoundly affect our personal lives and the world at large. Although the fighting effectiveness of the martial artist is intrinsic to the martial arts tradition and to the martial artist’s basic self-defense, the ability of the martial artist to positively enhance themselves and the world is vastly more important.

This is true as a philosophical approach for living in the world but is also true on a very practical level. Most peaceful loving people will never experience a need to fight in hand-to-hand combat, so training in a martial art would be a waste of time if the intention behind the training was primarily to fight. A combat sport is designed to focus on dominating and winning, so in this case the training matches the purpose and intention, but there is a danger of a peaceful loving person training in a combat sport and becoming a violent person who creates more violence in the world and themselves. There is also the danger of a volatile or violent person becoming more volatile of violent through training in a combat sport, although combat sports do have the potential to provide an outlet for violence in a controlled manner that is better than the alternative.

The point is basically that Poekoelan Tjimindie Tulen is a martial art in the traditional sense. It incorporates the traditions of effective self-defense, discipline, and personal growth through a path of compassionate balanced action: breathing, flowing, and not being concerned with outcomes. In a world and economy that is constantly pitting people against each other with the idea that competitiveness will create the greatest good for the greatest number of people, or simply supporting the notion that “it’s a dog eat dog world”, we must always remain perceptive to a balanced view of what’s ultimately most important.

This post is also about defending the tradition of martial arts that is balanced and compassionate, and about much more than fighting. Just learning to fight is not an art form. Just learning to fight is warfare. A martial art is a comprehensive experience that leads to a better self and a better world with joy in the process, including the joy of the beauty of movement, tradition, and respect for self, peers, and teachers.

My home school is One With Heart in Portland, Oregon, where the internal training is equally or more important than the physical training. My teachers Goeroe Janesa Kruse and Goeroe Scott Montgomery are imperfect human beings but are profound teachers and leaders in the school and community. Everyone deserves the right to self-respect and self-defense, which is why the school teaches one of the best women’s self-defense seminars in the world, provides many children self-defense classes, and teaches practical, easy to remember, and straight-forward street-self-defense techniques during phase one of training.

Gatong Rajong (Share and share alike)

Sincerely,

Joel Yasskin

Hello,

I’m a longtime practitioner of Poekoelan Tjimidie Tulen and am aware of the seminars and camps. I only attended one camp in my many years of training and never went to any seminars, not because I was against the teaching or training but because it simply wasn’t in my budget to afford the time or money. I was never pressured or discriminated against for not attending these camps or seminars. People can take or leave the particular teachings as they wish. Just going to class, training, helping to teach, and testing for rank is enough to learn the art and earn the respect and appreciation of your classmates and teachers.

One of the greatest simple teachings of the school is that your training is in “your hands” and to “fight fear”. Maybe it’s important to ask yourself if you’re actually just dissapointed or resentful that you could not afford the time or money to attend the camps or seminars, which I’m sure were full of amazing workouts and technique development. I never felt any sense of a cult at Poekoelan. I felt a sense of tradition and deep commitment to the art from a lot of people, but I also felt that in many other circles life. Look seriuosly at your local fine art or music community with all it’s critics, snobs, self-proclaimed exprts, cliques, taboos, money, moguls, celebrities, and pressures. Poekoelan could feel tightnit, because of the community atmosphere and common dedication to the art, a little like an old Chinese village or Shaolin temple, perhaps. When I trained with Mas Goeroe Agoeng Barbara Nigel, I never saw an entourage–nothing like Manny Paquiao’s, at least. She had a few friends or longtime practitioners hanging out with her, like any head instructor at a large martial arts seminar. She was modest, well spoken, confident, and smiled with a magnificient brightness. During group training often heard her and other top teachers make an occassional joyful chuckle or make a simple comments about the students. She was always watching the students and focusing on them.

I’m not sure about the online teachings and all that. I’m not into that, so I don’t participate. It’s my choice. I was never pressured or ever felt pressured to receive any spiritual teachings per se’. I appreciated the school mottos of “practice, patience, purity, and perseverance” “compassionate, balanced, action”, and “breathing, flowing, and not being concerned with outcomes”, but these mottos never manifested into dogma or a complex school philosophy. They were just basic straightforward mottos to give some grounding to the internal side of training. Meditation is a large portion of the higher rank testing, but no one ever tells you to meditate on anything cultish: just “Let everything go. Give thanks to your higher power, if you have one. Breathe”, meditation basics.

This was my experience over the last nineteen years. It’s a beautiful artform with many elaborate open-hand and weapon forms from China, including some gorgeous and dynamic Shaolin forms. Nothing to fear but fear itself.

Terima Kasi Banyak, (Thank you very much)

Joel Yasskin

I practice Pukulan (deliberately don’t call it Poekoelan), since what I’ve seen from Poekoelan Tjimindie on youtube, I don’t recognize the style at all. Pukulan from what I know is a ‘slimmed down’ variation of Pencak, so no kembangan (flower dance), no seni (fancy forms for show), no olah raga (semi contact sparring). Just self-defense and preferably in an agressive, direct way.

What surprises me are the jumping kicks, summersaults, and kungfu type flavour of the movements. Pukulan to me is raw, no fancy show moves, no high kicks (just low kicks to thighs, knees, shins, ankle) and a lot of focus on hitting, like boxing. What i see, with all due respect of Poekoelan on Youtube is bad quality in hitting (some don’t know how to make a proper fist and bend the wrist). Pukulan or Poekoelan is all about hitting, hitting and hitting. In the past in Holland Pukulan had a fearful reputation amongst other practitioners from karate, pencak, and even kickboxing and boxing.
Now from what i see it’s more of the laughing stock of martial arts. Flapping around with fans in a kungfu like form?? No pukulan at all! Too bad.

Luckily there are still some smaller groups in Indonesia, America, Holland etc. who still pay tribute to a once respected style… hope one day it will get a bit of it’s name back.