I’m not undermining their points, I’m just saying it has no effectiveness in mma because of the gloves. I’m not saying anything about using it without gloves.
My view on things like this is; if you can do something simpler, then just do that. Don’t worry about tricks and secrets. Worry about throwing an effective punch, that will probably do the job just fine.
This is really the big question. Human physiology seems pretty clear that punching with one knuckle means you’re more likely to injure it, so why punch with only one? The big question again is, is it more effective than a regular punch? And from Omega’s answer (and he has a pro record on sherdog, so STFU about “internet opinions”), it is “no.”
We’re taught that we can throw one in every once and a while with your standard punches to inflict pain to distract. Goes along with the iron palm hand conditioning.
It does hurt, but it won’t put you down. I guess you could consider its potential use in the same fashion as fighters who throw low thai kicks to slowly break down their opponent. There is, however, a large (and perhaps unnecessary) amount of conditioning that has to go into the phoenix eye.
I think someone mentioned the dragon’s paw, which is the middle knuckle. Same strike you use to deadarm a guy you’re joking around with. Any thoughts on that?
Will all due respect to that member, that’s still only an internet opinion and all his matches on Sherdog related to gloved events. Plus he said one Phoenix Eye technique does work. You are twisting the facts to suit your preconceived outcome.
You keep shifting the guidelines of your question from “in mma” to “outside mma” to saying an MMA fighter’s experience is not “evidence” enough. You’re just waiting until we get tired of arguing, and then you will proclaim that since we couldn’t provide “empirical” (again, not the kind of evidence you actually are looking for) evidence, the technique must be viable. The burden of proof, once again, is on you to prove effectiveness.
No, I am not claiming it is effective, you and a ton of other people are claiming it isn’t. Omega said “In mma it works for one technique” you even quoted that. But my original post did not confine the conversation to MMA, that’s your construct. You are short of proof to back up your claims, maybe you should stop making those claims.
It is impossible – ontologically! – to prove empirically that something doesn’t work. The evidence that could possibly be relevant here is evidence that it does work, or evidence that it has been attempted and failed. We have neither. On the standard scientific view that burden of proof rests with the party trying to change the general concensus, the burden of proof lies with the yea-sayers.
We can interpret this absence of evidence in more than one way, of course. Maybe it really does work, but for some reason no one is able to show it. That sounds rather odd. Maybe it really doesn’t work, and the reason why we can’t find evidence of failed attempts is that no one even brings it to competition.
The general consensus is that it does work surely, a good many martial arts teach it and many books have been published detailing it. You or I might disagree but I doubt we are the general consensus. What evidence can you offer to prove that your view is the general consensus?
Based on available evidence, there is no proof that the ‘phoenix eye’ technique is any better than a standard punch in boxing.
Happy now?
You’re either slow or you get too easily caught up in the semantics of an argument.
Why are you reversing your opinion of the ‘phoenix eye’ technique? You initially proclaimed your doubt about it’s effectiveness, but now you’re arguing we have to provide proof that it doesn’t work? Did the whole ‘glove’ angle blow your inexperienced mind or something?
^^^ THIS IS WHY THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU, OBSERVER.
General consensus? You’re saying it works, but you’re claiming general consensus as your argument for it, while asking us to disprove (with evidence) the technique, otherwise you’re presumably right. Teaching a technique tells nothing about effectiveness, using it provides evidence of effectiveness. Go find some, or STFU.
Is there any empirical evidence to support the widespread belief among sane human beings that wearing a tinfoil hat does not prevent the CIA from reading my mind with secret brain-wave technology?
No, I am not claiming that wearing a tinfoil hat prevents the CIA from reading my mind with secret brain-wave technology, despite bringing it up in the first place for no reason. You and a ton of other people are claiming it doesn’t. The burden of proof is on you. You are now trapped inside my web of logic.
The general consensus among paranoid schizophrenics is that it does work, surely. A good many paranoid schizophrenics ramble on incoherently about it. You or I might disagree, but I doubt we are the general consensus. This is because normal people with normal brains don’t normally consider outlandish ideas with no basis in reality.
It doesn’t undermine it. It simply explains a context in which this strike is innefective.
Non sequitur.
If you were to pay fucking attention (that is, lurk more and post less), you’ll know that some of the individuals bringing testimony have a verifiable record, are known publicly and even have footage of competition. The people who had replied to you aren’t just random lunatics claiming that Elvis is alive…
… you will know more about this if you stop posting and lurk more.
The simple fact is that you started a post indicating you have doubted his efficacy and asked if the doubt could be justifiable. Answers were given to you.
At that point, you switched gears, in a manner that smells you actually believe in the technique in question. That is, your first post was simply baiting for answers for you to use as straws to build your nonsense.
Either you are a troll, or just too dumb and juvenile to conduct your own research or start/participate in a Q&A discussion.
Also, it’s just plain pretty fucking retarded to, in one hand, dismiss the opinion of fighters and practitioners over the internet, because “ZOMG is the internet!!!11”, and, on the other hand, start a fucking discussion asking for fucking opinions in the goddam fucking internet.
That’s just a weak cop-out, a sign of your inability to simply STFU and objectively digest the opinions presented to you.
If you are so goddam honest in wanting to know the truth, and if you are so predisposed to dismiss the opinions presented over the internet (why would you fucking start a discussion in the internet, then?) what you need to do is go out there and try it.
Yes, YOU. Go out there and try it. Try bareknuckle, try with gloves, try it against someone trying to clock the shit out of you. Then report back with your findings.
You are free to find your own empirical evidence. Go, free and fly like a bee. Go and find the answers for yourself given that the internet is not a reliable source for answers.
I didn’t see any other photos posted.
That does not look like a proper Pheonix Eye. There is no support for the partially extended index finger. If you try to punch a wall or a person with what is shown above, it will hurt your thumb (but I have recently noticed that the above hurts like it’s more sharp). Your hand needs to be connected all around - your thumb should cover the fold of your index finger, and your hand clenched all around so that it is entirely stable. The point of the Pheonix Eye is to be a sharper pain, and to get into parts and nodes of the body inaccessable by a fist, or a palm, and when an open palm is too dangerous.
As mentioned early, MMA gloves make it difficult to hold the hand in the one knuckle configuration, thus one cannot look for evidence of effective one knuckle punching in MMA. So please, let’s not talk about that anymore.
Instead, we should be looking at bare knuckle striking contests, such as knockdown karate or old school bare knuckle Vale Tudo.
Or bare knuckle boxing. As we can see from this MAP post, single knuckle punching was popular with at least one or two pugilists from back in the day: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=311190&postcount=30
Now obviously, this evidence is a bit dated and limited. I sent a private message to Louie on MAP asking for more information on this photograph. If it turns out that the boxer had a huge streak of knockouts, that might lend some more credence to one knuckle punching. If it turns out he repeatedly lost fights, perhaps he was just a bad fighter who liked a stupid technique (see: Datsik).
In any case, we do now have some evidence of practicioners of combat sports liking the one knuckle punch.
For my own experience, one time someone at karate suckerpunched me with a pheonix eye in the solar plexus. It hurt pretty bad, and I believe I dropped a bit. It wasn’t a terribly hard shot, but it still amounted to a respectable degree of pressure .
He said that Phoenix Eye hand formation worked IN ONLY ONE SCENARIO.
He said it worked when he was doing an RNC, or rear naked choke, no? You can use the knuckle to help you slide the arm in for the choke. IN NO WAY IS THIS A STRIKE, its more of a digging motion than a hitting one. Therefore it is not the “effective phoenix eye strike” that you claim he was calling it.
Congratulations, you just twisted the facts. Pot call kettle black much?