Off topic in the tech forum

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Trollshido
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[QUOTE=patfromlogan;2715655]I trained several hours on sprawling and got OK at it and it surprised me how quickly the technique became effective. On the other hand, you can train karate a couple decades and learn to front snap the shooter’s lead leg as he comes in. That works for me sometimes, but several hours learning sprawling and using it rolling right away, or decades nailing down a somewhat low percentage technique, the choice is yours.

Go train.[/QUOTE]
thoughts:
-a front snap kick to the lead leg sounds slightly less effective than an ear slap or a knee to the face as a takedown defense. That is to say, not very effective at all. How does it stop them from coming at you, and does it justify standing on one foot while someone is trying to take you down?

-does a karate master generally practice such a kick against a real wrestling takedown, ever, or just a pantomime “this is what a wrestler or football player will do” kind of skit?

-couldn’t you just be giving up your leg to your opponent?

-I’ve done hundreds of front snap kicks, in the air, against bags, kicking shields, chest protectors, people’s guts etc yet I’ve never seen a good opportunity to stop a takedown attempt with one.

-I’ve seen a good deal of pankration matches where takedown and kicks are allowed, and very rarely does a kick successfully counter a takedown. Its usually the other way around.

-should you even be able to see a proper shot at kicking range? Will a good fighter attack you with grappling from far enough away that you can see it, react, and still have the space to kick them in a moving target?

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[QUOTE=Permalost;2715784]I’ve done hundreds of front snap kicks, in the air, against bags, kicking shields, chest protectors, people’s guts etc yet I’ve never seen a good opportunity to stop a takedown attempt with one. [/QUOTE]

Here’s a fun thing to try, though:

Some try to fake a level-change and follow with a superman punch to an adversary as the latter begins to sprawl.

I’ve tried something a bit different in sparring:

  1. Fake a level-change. The feint will depend on the range and where the opponent’s legs are.

  2. The opponent starts the sprawl.

  3. From midway through the level-change (you did it right–didn’t you?–with the legs doing the work), snap the supporting leg back up to near-straight while snapping the other foot into the adversary’s now-exposed face.

Be sure to time the strike considerable before you would have timed even a superman punch to ensure that the foot crashes into the opponent’s face before his hands are anywhere near the ground. Done right, the kick will snap the head upward while the body continues its sprawl-committed downward trajectory.

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[QUOTE=Permalost;2715784]thoughts:
-a front snap kick to the lead leg sounds slightly less effective than an ear slap or a knee to the face as a takedown defense. That is to say, not very effective at all. How does it stop them from coming at you, and does it justify standing on one foot while someone is trying to take you down?

-does a karate master generally practice such a kick against a real wrestling takedown, ever, or just a pantomime “this is what a wrestler or football player will do” kind of skit?

-couldn’t you just be giving up your leg to your opponent?

-I’ve done hundreds of front snap kicks, in the air, against bags, kicking shields, chest protectors, people’s guts etc yet I’ve never seen a good opportunity to stop a takedown attempt with one.

-I’ve seen a good deal of pankration matches where takedown and kicks are allowed, and very rarely does a kick successfully counter a takedown. Its usually the other way around.

-should you even be able to see a proper shot at kicking range? Will a good fighter attack you with grappling from far enough away that you can see it, react, and still have the space to kick them in a moving target?[/QUOTE]
Why would I stand on one leg? Ala Karate Kid?

And you’ve done HUNDREDS of kicks? Is this really what you mean to say? I do hundreds of kicks on the heavy bag every time I go to the heavy bag (which to tell the truth isn’t all that often since I moved from Logan last year where the men’s rec locker room has one hanging, one that I ripped off the ceiling once with my killer sides). My routine is 100 fronts, 100 rndhs, then at least 10 each side, sides, backs, spinning backs, crescents, knees and usually remember spinning hooks and wheels etc etc

As Oyama said, a thousand times to learn the technique, ten thousand times to master. In Wado we’d sometimes do five hundred kicks up and down the driveway before class as warmup. In KK we’d do 'em in air and pads and bags. In Kempo in Honolulu we’d kick pads till your’s truly was gassed.

I’ve used front snap and roundhouse a few times sparring hard. It’s a matter of timing. Smaller guy gets sick of eating my left jab, I;ve sparred him plenty, know he’s had plenty of grappling and BJJ (and bb karate) and I know he’s going to shoot and when I’m down I’ll be tapping in 30 seconds (I actually ONCE beat this particular little asshole grappling in several years of sparring; he made a mistake! Pure luck, I never beat his dad or brothers grappling, but I did go from 10 seconds to tap to lasting maybe 30).

Anyway 2 clear instances come to mind: little man starts his shoot for a double leg and I’m ready and as he puts his weight on lead leg I kick it straight back and he falls on his face, and mouthy idiot who made the mistake of telling me twice that BJJ and grappling wipe out karate and I said, OK, take me down. I was a little pissed (n00bs should stfu for god’s sake) so when he came at me I roundhoused his front leg, knee’d him in the gut with the other leg, threw him on his back, got full mount and hit him a little.

In Kempo I was frustrated because they didn’t allow much leg attacks. Kyokushin drills them, kinda like this video

//youtu.be/aPY5PUNDmaA

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[QUOTE=patfromlogan;2715796]
And you’ve done HUNDREDS of kicks? Is this really what you mean to say? I do hundreds of kicks on the heavy bag every time I go to the heavy bag (which to tell the truth isn’t all that often since I moved from Logan last year where the men’s rec locker room has one hanging, one that I ripped off the ceiling once with my killer sides). My routine is 100 fronts, 100 rndhs, then at least 10 each side, sides, backs, spinning backs, crescents, knees and usually remember spinning hooks and wheels etc etc

As Oyama said, a thousand times to learn the technique, ten thousand times to master. In Wado we’d sometimes do five hundred kicks up and down the driveway before class as warmup. In KK we’d do 'em in air and pads and bags. In Kempo in Honolulu we’d kick pads till your’s truly was gassed.[/QUOTE]And yet you imagine you’re ‘OK’ at sprawling after a few hours practise?

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Excised from: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=117648

Permalost and PSB, please stop making off topic posts in the Basic Tech forum. Or rather, please stop engaging in off topic debate.

Thank you, the management.

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[QUOTE=patfromlogan;2715796]Why would I stand on one leg? Ala Karate Kid? [/quote]
To kick, a la people who kick.

And you’ve done HUNDREDS of kicks? Is this really what you mean to say?

Actually I had written “thousands”, but I paused for a moment to think about how many snap kicks I’ve done, got frustrated with the math, then figured “nah, hundreds will get my point across”. My point being that I’ve done lots of them.

I do hundreds of kicks on the heavy bag every time I go to the heavy bag (which to tell the truth isn’t all that often since I moved from Logan last year where the men’s rec locker room has one hanging, one that I ripped off the ceiling once with my killer sides). My routine is 100 fronts, 100 rndhs, then at least 10 each side, sides, backs, spinning backs, crescents, knees and usually remember spinning hooks and wheels etc etc

I never assumed that an old hard karate guy didn’t do a lot of front snap kicks.

As Oyama said, a thousand times to learn the technique, ten thousand times to master. In Wado we’d sometimes do five hundred kicks up and down the driveway before class as warmup. In KK we’d do 'em in air and pads and bags. In Kempo in Honolulu we’d kick pads till your’s truly was gassed.

Okay. I think there may be better uses of class time even in the field of front-snap-kicking people but that’s just me.

I’ve used front snap and roundhouse a few times sparring hard. It’s a matter of timing. Smaller guy gets sick of eating my left jab, I;ve sparred him plenty, know he’s had plenty of grappling and BJJ (and bb karate) and I know he’s going to shoot and when I’m down I’ll be tapping in 30 seconds (I actually ONCE beat this particular little asshole grappling in several years of sparring; he made a mistake! Pure luck, I never beat his dad or brothers grappling, but I did go from 10 seconds to tap to lasting maybe 30).

Anyway 2 clear instances come to mind: little man starts his shoot for a double leg and I’m ready and as he puts his weight on lead leg I kick it straight back and he falls on his face, and mouthy idiot who made the mistake of telling me twice that BJJ and grappling wipe out karate and I said, OK, take me down. I was a little pissed (n00bs should stfu for god’s sake) so when he came at me I roundhoused his front leg, knee’d him in the gut with the other leg, threw him on his back, got full mount and hit him a little.

So it sounds like they’re going for the shot while they’re still just outside of kicking range, is that right?

In Kempo I was frustrated because they didn’t allow much leg attacks. Kyokushin drills them, kinda like this video

//youtu.be/aPY5PUNDmaA

cool sweep.

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What about a front snap to the face as takedown defense. Seems more plausible than a leg kick. Also wouldn’t a side kick to the shin ala John Jones work better to stall an advance??

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[QUOTE=Permalost;2715924]To kick, a la people who kick.[/QUOTE]Come on, when you posted this, was the kicker holding his foot in the air?? [QUOTE=Permalost;2716082]That roundhouse kick made me go DAAAAAAAAAAAMN![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Permalost;2715924]Actually I had written “thousands”, but I paused for a moment to think about how many snap kicks I’ve done, got frustrated with the math, then figured “nah, hundreds will get my point across”. My point being that I’ve done lots of them.

I never assumed that an old hard karate guy didn’t do a lot of front snap kicks.

Okay. I think there may be better uses of class time even in the field of front-snap-kicking people but that’s just me.

So it sounds like they’re going for the shot while they’re still just outside of kicking range, is that right?

cool sweep.[/QUOTE]There are plenty of ways to spend time wisely training and I see only a few older TMA practitioners who have similar skills (or like the punches from guys who’ve hit makiwara for years, no modern kickboxer is going to hit fucking makiwaras, but have you ever been hit by someone who has spent years pounding them?). No MMA’er, BJJ’er, kickboxer, or even most karateka are going to start class by doing 500 front snaps. And they certainly won’t be taught the details of keeping ankle bent with toes back, then extending foot so that the pad hits inward, rather than up, and so forth. I’m not arguing that one should train like I did, it’s just that I already trained that way. I do wish now that I’d spent some of that time going black in judo, but so be it, I got killer kicks, left jab, exploding knee strikes, and so forth.

I dunno about distancing. If someone is within range strikes are made. Yes I guess that when sparring shooters would tend to start out of the striking zone, that said, of course shooters doing combos increases their chances.

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[QUOTE=Bneterasedmynam;2716010]What about a front snap to the face as takedown defense. Seems more plausible than a leg kick. Also wouldn’t a side kick to the shin ala John Jones work better to stall an advance??[/QUOTE]

I tend not to kick people hard to the face. And if I kicked most of the guys I work out with hard to the face they would probably be motivated to beat the fuck out of me. Also it’s a lot longer distance so might be avoided more easily.

See, unlike the OP who doesn’t work out but willing to bs forever about slaps to the ear or some such shit, I work out. You wouldn’t make this comment if you sparred standup and ground.

My sidekicks are too slow for stopping shoots. Do you have video of Jones’ use of them?

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[QUOTE=patfromlogan;2716577]I tend not to kick people hard to the face. And if I kicked most of the guys I work out with hard to the face they would probably be motivated to beat the fuck out of me. Also it’s a lot longer distance so might be avoided more easily.

See, unlike the OP who doesn’t work out but willing to bs forever about slaps to the ear or some such shit, I work out. You wouldn’t make this comment if you sparred standup and ground.

My sidekicks are too slow for stopping shoots. Do you have video of Jones’ use of them?[/QUOTE]

I have seen him use them more as shin kicks to get space than a direct counter to a takedown. I could see that to some extent although limited as making it more difficult to close to a good distance for a takedown. I have used a front snap one whole time to stop a takedown attempt, but it was only in sparring and I didn’t connect. That part was more of a question on would it work.

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[QUOTE=Bneterasedmynam;2716591]I have seen him use them more as shin kicks to get space than a direct counter to a takedown. I could see that to some extent although limited as making it more difficult to close to a good distance for a takedown. I have used a front snap one whole time to stop a takedown attempt, but it was only in sparring and I didn’t connect. That part was more of a question on would it work.[/QUOTE]Oh, OK. I think it would be harder than a kneeing a shooter, which is hard enough. Personally I love high front snap kicks. No one ever expects them (specially from old man) so they tend to block their body and I can go right over the arms and connect (or pretend to…) to the face. I can imagine breaking teeth and noses easy, but I pull 'em. It’s like Professor Guiyang (Kempo in HNL) said when doing boxing drills with head gear, “Go pretty hard with your hooks, but don’t smash anyone’s face with straights. No teeth, no noses? OK?” It’s hard to practice a lot of dangerous stuff and it’s sometimes hard to do self-defense with stuff you can’t practice live.

I do use sides to keep people off me. Kyokushin allows leg attacks and sweeps, and since a lot of styles don’t, those people are vulnerable to side and other leg kicks. As a side note, I think knowing leg attacks and sweeps are really good for self-defense. If mas are vulnerable to leg attacks I imagine they would really work well. I tried to find the video of Hong Kong cops throwing knife attackers (in practice) with leg sweeps - beautiful roundhouse kicks that literally dump the attacker on his head.

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[QUOTE=patfromlogan;2716573]Come on, when you posted this, was the kicker holding his foot in the air?? [/quote]
No, but I’m sure we’ll agree that he was standing on one leg when the foot hit him in the face.

There are plenty of ways to spend time wisely training and I see only a few older TMA practitioners who have similar skills (or like the punches from guys who’ve hit makiwara for years, no modern kickboxer is going to hit fucking makiwaras, but have you ever been hit by someone who has spent years pounding them?).

Well, I’ve trained/sparred a little with uechi ryu and shito ryu guys. Got to spar with Kempo Clyde once. He used precision ball-of-the-foot kicks that made me have to take a breather, and I know he wasn’t kicking super hard.

No MMA’er, BJJ’er, kickboxer, or even most karateka are going to start class by doing 500 front snaps. And they certainly won’t be taught the details of keeping ankle bent with toes back, then extending foot so that the pad hits inward, rather than up, and so forth.

I dunno, I learned to do snap kicks with the details you just described, but without the kicking 100s of reps up and down a driveway.

Have you ever come across a wall-mounted kicking board? I guess they’re a kempo thing. Basically a thick board with a minimum of padding, attached to a tire, attached to a wall. You kick em. Not bad for getting the right foot positions for kicks.

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I have to agree that when kicking one usually has one leg in the air, 'cept for guys who are REALLY good!If I’d only spent more time on TKD and WC…