Kung Fu = Karate? History?

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Bullshido.ORG Martial Arts Encyclopedia Discussion
1

Looking for your perspective in a little history.

Back when the occidental split from the oriental and the oriental headed east from the Ural Mountains - we have the east really developing the manual fighting skills and the west…well not really.

Tibet and China seemed to be the early breeding ground of the most popular martial arts today - Chinese, Japanese, Korean.

My question of discussion is whether karate came out of kung fu - as it was the Buddhists who civilized and educated all that region of the planet and this is true of them taking the culture of the fighting arts from the mainland into the islands.

Similarities can be seen in some older styles of karate to kung fu but not easily seen in the modern eclectic scene.

What ya recon?
martialarm.com

2

Nothing I care to waste my time on Kickcatcher. As I continue to age out I clearly hear the footsteps of Father Time gaining on me. It’s a race that I am sure to lose … but I’m going to run as fast as I can for as long as I can … in a fowardly direction. John

3

If I have time, I will try to come up with some links to where I’ve seen this info before.

The relationship between Buddhism and the MA has to do with the idea of sanctuary. MA often developed among the criminal element of Chinese society, and to escape prosecution, many practitioners would flee to the nearest Buddhist temple, thus preserving their lives. Thus the MA came to be practiced in temples among new “converts”. When monks did travel to the Ryukyu Islands and Japan, they did take some of that knowledge with them. There is an article in the fightingarts.com reading room regarding this.

The Okinawan arts did have a native foundation. The art of Te did originate in Okinawa, but was influenced by Chinese teachings as many of the great masters from the 19th century traveled to China to learn and refine their arts.

Much of the JMA is also indigenous, having been influenced by the MA brought by Buddhist missionaries primarily in the 12th century, the Heian period of Japan. The two primary MA of Japan would be the sword arts (Kendo, Kenjutsu, Kempo, and Iaido/jutsu) and Archer (Kyudo/jutsu). Ju Jutsu/Judo and Aikido were later developments which show the influence of Chinese Buddhism (Chan Buddhism) and became popular among the senshi (professional soldiers not quite of the Samurai class), who would go into battle armed with spears (yari), pikes, and halberds (both Naginata). With their long wooden shafts, these weapons did break quite frequently, so having an alternate way of fighting would increase your chances from almost none to slim.

Like I said, I will try to find the references where I saw this information.

4

Dear Martialarm:

You posted this same inquiry over on FIGHTING ARTS Forum and have not been able to justify either your statements, or your obvious lack of insight into the subject. I am left to wonder about your reason for posting this question. Were I to hazard a guess, I would suggest that you are someone who is required to write a paper on the subject and want other people to give you the information. Were this the case I would respond that you are required to find this information for yourself as part of the MA growth experience. If this is NOT the case, I am wondering what exactly you are looking for from these discussion forums that you are apparently too lazy to look up and read for yourself. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

5

im a jack of all trades, master of absolutely nothing. so, as usual, i’ll give the small piece of knowledge i have on the subject—

u said that karate doesnt show much similarity to kung fu anymore, but the idea of “spacers” when punching with a chamber comes from 2 ideas:

  1. using a “push- pull” method will generate more power (like how the body reels back in a thai kick, or how you lean back when swinging a baseball bat)
    and

  2. the spacer defends the centerline, which is a kung fu idea.

ok sorry for wasting valuable post space.

6

Martial Arm has been cross forum copy-and-pasting these open ended questions. This on and the previous one on training evolution have been word-for-word copied on at least three forums now.

  • Matt
7

I reckon its just a dummy post which is an advertisement for the website he has at the bottom of the post.

8

Most karate kata are pretty well established to have to come to Okinawa from 1) Chinese living on Okinawa training with the natives, 2) Okinawan martial artists who traveled to southern China to study…this is well documented BTW, karate being a fairly modern art, read almost anything by Patrick McCarthy for specifics…there is little or no modern connection to Buddhism in karate-do as far as I know. As far as Karate coming from Kung-fu, yes, to a large degree everything came from something else, or was blended with something else, and Karate is no exception. Also, my impression is that most of the Chinese influence on Okinawa was through merchants and not any sort of religious authorities, but that’s just my impression.

9

I do gotta agree with the remark regarding commercialism having more impact on Okinawa than any religious missionaries, but it is known that Buddhism was a very mission oriented religion since its’ inception. It’s spread rivals that of Christianity and Islam, both of which have had profound impacts on the regions where they gained a strong foothold.

10

Pick up a book and start reading. I would suggest Weaponless Warriors by Richard Kim as a good start. Read some of the other history threads here. Start adding in your $.02 of what you think to be true, but quit trolling the same question on every f’n forum you find.

11

I reckon its just a dummy post which is an advertisement for the website he has at the bottom of the post.

BINGO.

12

There really isn’t much in the way of solid written records supporting the santuary position. Even less in the way of “Shoalin being the Fountain Head of all KF.”

Back in the mid-1990s I would meet from time to time with “b” who was, arguably, the first non-Chinese Temple Monk in America. b was insistent that MA as a whole was a very small part of Temple life. The younger Monks spent time on it in pursuit of Som Bo Gin … 3 Battles (Forward) but the majority of Monks spent their time in far more esoteric practices with a -0- MA bent.

As for KF being the “Father” of kara te. I kind of doubt it. We have some decent documents reflecting a journey and exchange within a few of the kara te lines and those Han of the Fukien area. Still, the influence appears minimal as Goju-Ryu and some of the other systems have what I would characterize as only the “main branches” of Som Bo Gin which is their Sanchin Kata. The footwork is bare bones minimal and the Sanchin Kata I have seen do not have the 45 degree advance & withdraw steps found in Fukien White Crane. I “cut my teeth” on Fukien White Crane some 41 years ago … Feeding Crane sub-system to be exact.

I think it’s a bit odd … ethnocentric … to designate a place other than the Country in question as the “origin” or Fountain Head of their cultural MA systems. That argument basically means that no codified methodology of combat existed before …

Even if we accept the Chinese perspective that is a straw man as well. Ultimately, it would trace back to India which is the typically noted birth place of Da Mo. If you ever get the chance to see any legitimate MA from India you will most likely see the majority of movement paths held in TCMA.

I think Paul Whitrod (England) has probably done the most in this regard. Paul is an accomplished Southern Praying Mantis Master (Chow Gar - the late Ip Shui) and he made the trip to India in order to find his “roots” so to speak. If someone is really interested they can contact Paul directly as he is a decent and approachable Man.

Ultimately, I fail to see the value of tracing back through time any MA system - style. For some strange reason people hold out a notion that somehow the more primal versions must be better.

I say their reasons are “strange” because we certainly don’t apply that standard to any thing else in this World. No one is busy searching for a Model T car because they think it might be superior to what is available today. The other thing is that hold out the belief that the “older” way is the best way is to discount the improvements - changes that infuse any living MA form. Damned disrepectful to those that apparently paid a high price in the currency of sweat & blood in order to further their method of choice.

I think a decent argument can be made that Japanese main stream kara te post WWII is the exception to the improvement position that proves the rule. Looks like it was pushed into a more sporting posture with many of the stances & footwork being far too stylized & deep to be of real World value. Fine for Ippon style tourney play and that’s about it.

Regardless, from a purely pragmatic point of view … I have no desire to re-invent the wheel.

I that that whatever any MA “was” the key term is “was” as an Art form must live in the moment and speak to each generation in a voice that the generation understands.

Entropy prevails in all closed systems. A system that is open at the “present” end endures … it is then a process. All else runs out of steam … runs out of usefulness and dies.

The only thing left of such MA systems - styles is to be found in what I call the “cultural performers” … a mere shell of what the method once was … gutted, Souless, and totally useless outside of historical interest. John

13

That has to be the most straight forward and sensible post that JFS has made on this site.It seems the longer he’s here the more normal sounding to me he’s becoming.

But seriously though,very good I think!

14

JFS, I would agree to the extent that Japan and Okinawa would have made many discoveries and found new inovative techniques on their own. There is, however, a documented link between Chinese and Japanese cultures, and it is well known that several of the great Okinawan masters had traveled to China to study MA there, and refine their techniques, and eventually incorporate what they learned into karate. There may well have been a link to CMA from India, and I find it highly likely. The human species, for the most part, has been a nomadic group, and the constant moving around would bring about a blend of cultures. Which is why the Iraqi people are different from the Babylonians, but are descendants of Babylon.

15

bushi_no_ki,

Becareful linking countries, regions and provences using modern geopolitical boundaries. For example drawing a connection between Fukien provence and Okinawa is correct. But equating that to a connection between China and Japan is a little dodgy for a historical standpoint. First of all, many Okinawans will be the first to inform you that they are not Japanese. For that matter, while Fukien provence in part of China, at the time of the transition, I don’t think the people of that area really payed any attention to the larger national plays.

Many of these attempts to grab or claim origin of techniques have far more to do with modern concepts of nationalism and supposed national identity than anything else.

Plus, while we can talk about a definite influence of regional Fukanese styles on the development of Karate, it’s much more difficult, from my understanding, to link styles that were developing inside what is modern China with the Ju Jitsu styles developing in Ancient Japan.

Please correct my history if I’m wrong on that account.

  • Matt
16

I can’t find any of the main points of your post wrong, Matt. I do know that starting in the 19th century at the latest, there was a connection from China to Okinawa. Chinese traiders did routinely visit Okinawa, and the merchants on those ships may well have had bodyguards with them, that would have trained in some form of CMA, and it is well documented that some of the great Karate masters of that time did travel to China to train. Also, there would have been influence upon the Okinawan people by the Japanese since Okinawa has been occupied. Case in point, the Official language, as I understand it, is Standard Japanese. I do know and understand the concept of Karate is Okinawan in origin, even though much of the terminology is Japanese. There are even styles recognized as Japanese Karate, much of which is through the addition of Jujutsu and Aikido techniques and principles. So the cultural influence goes both ways.

Remember that the spoken language used officially in Okinawa is Japanese, and the written language thus used is originally Chinese. It’s just a matter of finding out exactly when the cultural influence began, not how.

17

I’m aware of the above and yes, it is well documented … some measure of influence from the Chinese Mainland was introduced to a small number of kara te lines via in person exchange.

Before you go off on a bent wherein the Chinese & Japanese cultures have ever been on good terms you should do a little more research. You will find that the Han basically hate the Japanese and not without good reason.

Kindly keep in mind the nature of Chinese culture as it has existed and exerted influence for many centuries. In the Cantonese dialect “China” as in the Country of China is Jeung Gwa … translated it means “Center Kingdom” as in Center of the Universe … not just the Earth.

Think a bit highly of themselves wouldn’t you say? That’s the same as saying they less of everyone else. Again, if we look to the various Sanchin Kata we find the “main branches” found in Som Bo Gin … Fukine White Crane, Feeding Crane sub-system is dead on for a couple of kara te systems Sanchin Kata. What isn’t found is the full tree, all the roots, all the branches and all the leaves.

I’m not going to argue the point any further as I find it to be w/out real merit. I think it resolves down to the question … “If a person could authenticate, accurately trace back in time their system to its origin point what would be the potential good?”

To me, the answer is -0- … I don’t care to re-invent the wheel and I would challenge anyone to find a single example where the “old way” … the original prototype … is superior in performance to the most recent version of same. I’m not about to trade in my 2005 automobile for Model T Ford … my self propelled lawn mower is faster than the original Model T. John

18

Ancient Pankration > modern MMA? lol. Just kidding.

Too many people in Chinese systems try to argue that their system is the origin of Karate just as too many “okinawan” karateka try to trace back to some specific style of Kung Fu. I’ve got a book on Five ancestor fist KF which argues that it is the source of Karate… yet it’s link is also Sanchin (San Chien as it calls it)… which it in turn got from Pe Ho…

Are not both karate & Kung Fu not, to a practical extent, generic… sanchin isn’t ‘owned’ by any one system. All systems evolve and are periodically revised creating new ‘genes’ making anthopological tracing a guessing game without specific evidence of transmission, even those we consider “closed” systems? Bloody confusing. Interest must be academic, I agree that there are no pearls of wisdom to chase in history.