Discussion thread for Karl Marx. If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.
Is there a way to contact the author of the article on Karl Marx found at http://www.bullshido.org/martialarts/Karl_Marx ? I am curious if the article and investigation is still a “work in process”.
The article begins with this information:
The following is an article written by samurai_steve (Judah Maccabee) detailing the results of a lengthy investigation into Marx, Keichu-Do, and other associated areas.
So, if you use the search function and find Judah Maccabee, you might drop him a line (although I think your PM ability starts after 50 posts) and/or wait until he comes by this thread. In the meanwhile you could post your questions/remarks here.
Btw, welcome to Bullshido.
To offer a comparison, an honors thesis I wrote and submitted for a BA degree in psychology contained over 45 citations, predominately from peer-reviewed journals, and all of which contained the author’s name, year of publication, title of publication, and other information in accordance with the conventions of APA Style writing. A work meant for a doctoral degree would be expected to far surpass a work intended for a BA/BS, or even an MA/MS degree, regardless of the field of study. Additionally, citing sources without relevant information is a huge deal in academic writing, which calls into question what kind of institution would accept a work with this kind of inaccurate referencing.
I should note that for most theses you need at least 400 citations, and that’s based on my experiences in what we call ‘the humanities’ in the UK or what’s known as ‘liberal arts’ in the US. It’s right to presume that a medical science PhD would require at least as many, and make use of the many journals in the field such as Physical Therapy and the New England Medical Journal.
When I was reading this I was all like “Huh?”
Karl Marx and Keichu Do? Did Karl Marx do martial arts? Why are we making a discussion thread about him?
Then I like, clicked on the link to the article and I was like “Ooohhh. Now I understand.”
Cajun Karate!
I am the author of the investigation. I consider the matter largely closed, pending any further info.
Karl Marx is the founder of “communistshido” how couldn you know that.
The fights are made 10 vs 1 (the strength of commun life).So you have to get 9 friends of you if you want to learn.
But if you trust yourself with this you can limit your friends number to 6.
There is no fee.It’s free.
And there are no leaders of the group.There is no teacher.Everyone is at the same title.So you have to find yourself who the instructor is.
If you get loot after the fight you should share them to your friends.Communist rules. Sorry.
Still need info?
I started with Karl W Marx in 14 Sep 72, was on of his first 6 Dans promoted on Jun 24 92
I know the art from its orgins and spent a great deal of time with him at perosnal levels
Im educated and Retired Military, so I will answer respectful questions candidly, the rest can go into time out
What do you want to know, I have original documents, pics, and his first black belt given to me by him…as a gift…long ago…
GWD
Responding
Lets work this one by one please, that is one hell of a laundry list LOL!
GWD, thank you VERY much for your personal contributions to this. The perspective is invaluable.
There is much I can say about Keichu, Im far from a “koolaid” drinker but if you look at the “intent” of the original founding of the style it was quite interesting.
If folks do some reading they will find that Kano was only 22 when he embarked on his journey to “codify” the waza of modern Judo…from its origins…it was a life long evolution as did many founders of arts many now hail as benchmarks for modern MA and actually from which many MMA stylists pull thier techniques from…now Im NOT comparing Kano to Karl Marx but his ideas as presented in the dojo at the time of my entry were actually quite good…and if you read from todays perspective looking about 40 years back to say about the early 70s which I personally believe as the real start of KD…the only source document of the MA was a small booklet with the title Self Defense and Christianity through Keichu… note his reference to Christianity in this earliest book…at that time KD was more of a JuJutsu style with Judo and only one or two rudementary kata of whicih one was named Jute Ude Zuki…for 10 blocks and punches…in the "about the author section KM listed himself as a MMA with a TR D, this was the reference to “Trichcology”…hw as working towards a BA in Psych at LA college in Pineville La…he also said he held 4th Dans in two other systems of self defense and a black belt in Judo…but also listed himself as a 6th dan as the highest rank in KD …he did not promote himself but utilized other orgs for this…he also listed himself as a “licensed minister of the Gospel” at that time…he started his own org which was called the “Keichu Ryu Do Kan” HQ …and listed his self defense experience as back 26 yrs at that time…he was about 34 or 35 at the time of this booklet…it was obvious he was influenced by Judo and its principles as well as some “modern” psychology of that time…KM was big on TA, transanactional analysis…the old child/adult personas and thier manifestations which he talked about…no doubt influenced by his BA studies at the time… In this booklet were various qoutations and verses which we were required to know…etc…he listed 5 “self defense kata” which were things such as front choke, rear choke, full nelson etc… and went to things like rope chokes attacks with knife chain, etc…then to 2/3/4/5 man defenses…etc…looking back, some of this was not well grounded but at that time we learned them…something was better than nothing I guess…but you can see it was rooted in Judo and its self defense…but with a new twist for “Americans”…
We all experimented with this stuff and also we trained on heavy bags, fought pretty hard in the dojo and it was not uncommon to get pretty thrashed…as safety gear really did not exist until the mid 70s…so we tried not to hit the face but we hit hte body pretty hard…with an average sparring “session” lasting about 3 mins or so, unless it got spirited…we would go from closure to takedown to grapple etc…Id say it was SIMILAR to MMA but not the same ball park…we were not athletes…we were just fighters…remembver this was 40 yrs ago or so…in my case about 35…
I would say KD was started out with some solid principles taken from Judo and influenced by what KM “thought” were good techniques but remember he only had “FOR REAL” about 2 yrs maybe of actual formal training in anything, he did box and could do some good damage and he was just a “testy, aggressive” man who liked a fight…but he was also not a “technician” as we know it now…he could not kick high, he was not flashy, he just did basic “gedan level” MA…pretty much hit, grab, takedown and thrash…he did have what I feel now, was a fair working knowledge of Judo and he managed to have quest instuctors like I Young Kim from Baton Rouge to do clinics…etc…we went from org to org trying to find a place in MA world…
In 79 KM had a mmuch more developed style with about 7 kata and the carry over of go kyo no waza from judo, plus the old 5 self defence kata…in essence the students and some of the early black belts through tournaments sort of validated the style…Karl Marx rarely fought and I never say him personally compete while I was under his direct insturction, but I heard he did a few times…in fighting but in the senior division I think…the point is the KD system was devleoped “literally on the backs and belts” of the young black belts with KM orchestrating the moves…and the changes to the system…over time his own manipulation of people, his inability to lead and to really graps what he had, was his own undoing…his style only really has a “few” dojo now and "few practicioners’…accounting may vary…
In 1979 he started the WKCD or the World Kyung Chung Do org which I felt was influenced by some Koreans he was courting as he was trying to build “cred”…this org was run by me for a while when in Alaska and I did his certificates etc…he got the money…we did the admin work…trying to be “good students” This org finally fell on its face due to infighting and his top Sensei going off and attempting to salvage what they felt was a more suited expression of thier interpretation of Keichu, this resulted in "Shin Keichu by Mark Williams and myself creating a “ryu-ha” which became its own system more based Aiki…Shin Keichu had more influences from legitimate Karate Do and it exists today in LA…a few others tried to go off and create their “ryu-ha” or branch styles but lacked the ability to coherently create them or jsut did not have the technical training to do so…most of the Senior Dans went off and studied under Masters with real backgrounds…as KM later recanted and said he had NO real instruction in anything but Judo from Karl Geis Sensei…who is a real pioneer of both Tomiki Ryu Aikido and Judo with a sucessful org…he is about 70 I think now…or older…
during the 80s and beyond KM struggled to keep control of the system as his previous “child students” now became men and started to travel, study and form their own opinions about the art…some of us stayed in Keichu DESPITE Karl Marx and his antics…we tried to help him and we tried to keep the style going but in the end most left and as I said a few of us just expressed what we felt in our own ways…so now Keichu is a small style at best with maybe…maybe a 100 total active students but with many who have “taken it”…Id say about …maybe 100 total black belts promoted and to my knowledge only about 10 or so to 6th Dan level…and one at 7th Dan…some of those also had ranking in other MAs…legitimate…real ranks…
In terms of what this site may be looking for…is Keichu a valid MA…yes Id say but with some concern over what do you call a “real MA”…that depends…was it effective…well it was as good as the person practiciing…did it lack real depth…yes it did from my current perspective…yes it was lacking…what made it work was the more senior students going out and learning a more “legitimate” or better grounded art then brining those PRINCIPLES back to KD and then trying to incorporate them…into KD…
Agian the downfall of this was no coherent method for changes to be instituted, no central committee etc…only KM deciiding what was best and final say, it was his “art” so most of us were held “hostage” as either do it my way or leave"…agian many left…with threats issued etc…KM acted like a nutcase often and still does…IMO…he is near 70 now…
Id say to sum this up, Keichu was an art iwth much mroe potential than we see…it could have been great…but it was hamstrung by its founder…and held back by his own lack of understanding of people the need for healthy interaction and for change based on sound princiiples versus what wins a trophy…
I will not go into personal issues with Karl Marx as I have many…but my issue with him was he squandered such potential…he never truly “got it” in an art he himself “founded”…the story of Keichu is interesting…indeed but its also a tragedy of sorts…one of potential that was lost…even though some good was realized…
I still respect KM for what he attempted but I pity him for not achieving his true potential, I hold him accountable for lying to us, to kids and adults who trusted him and I hold him accountable for misleading folks at times but he is also human…
I guess another lesson is to not become “drunkened” but rank, by ego and to just enjoy your martial art…to study it, to embrace it and to find what fits…
I really wish Karl Marx would have just told the truth long ago…and leveled with us all, and instead embarked on building a true MA based on growth …and mutual cooperation etc…all dirct principles of Kano…
As for throw downs, video…etc…well thats another issue…I am just addessing the real history and perspective as “I know it to be true”…
JM please contact me via my emial, Id like to talk with you
GWD
I don’t see an email address. Please email me at:
a s h e a t e r (at) h o t m a i l (dot) c o m
No spaces in the email, just to avoid spammage. Put “Keichu” in the subject line.
- Steve
You have mail, thanks for your time
GWD
I’m bumping this so something else will be on the start page other than the ignorant shiite that’s there now. Thank you for understanding.
Thanks for the info.