Jiu-jitsu Instructor Killed Trying To Disarm A Robber On A Bus

[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2861362]Children crying themselves to sleep each night and will never get chance to train jiujitsu with their dad, who let his fear drive him to do something rash that when all was said and done, would have been over quickly and no one gets hurt.

It was the most likely outcome before “the will to act”, as Ra’s al Ghul famously put it in “Batman Begins”, came into play. The trouble is Ra’s al Ghul was wrong. What some people believe is “will to act” is really just driven by fear, or anger, or desire.

Sometimes not acting is not only harder, and the better choice, it takes extraordinary willpower.

That’s how I’ll remember this one. Crying kids who’d prefer an alive dad who chose not to act, not a dead “would-be hero”.[/QUOTE]
Actually a good point. Ras al Ghul was a damn comic book character.

It still does not negate the fact that an armed assailant is a deadly force encounter and should be treated as such.

Jmho. Ymmv.

Sometimes you keep cool and die quietly. Other times you keep cool and live. Sometimes you act and die. Sometimes you act and live. Neither action not inaction guarantee life.

[QUOTE=The Villain;2861371]Sometimes you keep cool and die quietly. Other times you keep cool and live. Sometimes you act and die. Sometimes you act and live. Neither action not inaction guarantee life.[/QUOTE]

The read of the situation here is that it was very unlikely the guy was going to start popping off rounds in the bus.
Sometimes its not clear and it may be better to act.
Unfortunately this time a guy died because he didn’t want to give up his stuff.

[QUOTE=Mr. Machette;2861363]It’s a counterpoint to the “can’t win don’t try” argument.

Frankly on a site dedicated to “fighting” I’m suprised it has such a following.

Look. Everyone dies. How many of us trully live? To cower in fear is not living. To struggle till your last breath is.

Your life. Your choice.

(and W. Rabbit has me on ignore so he can’t even see that post, to answer your question.)[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the clarification. Although “can’t win don’t try” isn’t what I’ve been getting out of this thread. Low COS, high risk, yeah, I get that…

I think you are trying to apply some sort of philosophical approach to something that is entirely practical and has to be judged on a case by case basis, individual circumstances.

If a person is going to seriously contemplate ever having to disarm a firearm wielding person, under any circumstances, they had better have serious specialized training, and be up on it.

And he can see any quoted response…like this one, so, no, not really.

[QUOTE=BKR;2861397]
If a person is going to seriously contemplate ever having to disarm a firearm wielding person, under any circumstances, they had better have serious specialized training, and be up on it.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah the dubious and dead paten nature of most “gun disarm” training its hard to imagine ever really getting that serious training.
All and all attempting a gun disarm certainly reaks of a do or die only situation. As in your going to get shot if you do it or not may as well give it a go.

I don’t know. If he dies falling off a mountain or something do we treat it the same. Life has risks.

Obviously disarming a guy with a gun is risky. Obviously if you fail you can die. But it is your choice as to what to do in a situation.

Recently we had some kid try to jump in a fight and break it up. Got punched and died.

[QUOTE=goodlun;2861409]Yeah the dubious and dead paten nature of most “gun disarm” training its hard to imagine ever really getting that serious training.
All and all attempting a gun disarm certainly reaks of a do or die only situation. As in your going to get shot if you do it or not may as well give it a go.[/QUOTE]

In my humble opinion doing disarm drills without something that shoots (airsoft, paintball, weak spring bb gun , rubber band gun ect…) is academic at best.

Without the negative reinforcement of pain when you do it wrong your angles get sloppy. And even if you’re really good at it the move is still a hail Mary.

But if there was ever a time to throw a hail Mary having a gun in your face would be it.

[QUOTE=Mr. Machette;2861363][a bunch of nonsense]
[…]
(and W. Rabbit has me on ignore so he can’t even see that post, to answer your question.)[/QUOTE]

I think that dumbass W. Rabbit has me on ignore as well, which is good, because I don’t want him to see me agreeing with him and calling you a stupid larping fuck (either that or an adequate troll).

Woo Valhalla yeah I’m-a get myself shot and fuck Chris Hemsworth, woo.

[QUOTE=Mr. Machette;2861455]But if there was ever a time to throw a hail Mary having a gun in your face would be it.[/QUOTE]

I got arrested once for smoking pot. There were guns in my face. By your logic, I suppose it was time for me to throw a Hail Mary and get my corpse on the news in the name of legalization?

Or maybe, I don’t know, the calculation of whether to act should involve some estimation of:

  1. The odds of dying if you act (impossible to guess, so let’s call it a conservative 50% chance of dying if you jump an armed bus robber)

and

  1. The odds of dying if you don’t (at most 50%, if the robber just pointed his gun at at least one other person but didn’t kill them; less than 10%, if he already spared ten people…).

Urgh why am I eve

[QUOTE=Wing-Kwan-Fu;2861492]I got arrested once for smoking pot. There were guns in my face. By your logic, I suppose it was time for me to throw a Hail Mary and get my corpse on the news in the name of legalization?

Or maybe, I don’t know, the calculation of whether to act should involve some estimation of:

  1. The odds of dying if you act (impossible to guess, so let’s call it a conservative 50% chance of dying if you jump an armed bus robber)

and

  1. The odds of dying if you don’t (at most 50%, if the robber just pointed his gun at at least one other person but didn’t kill them; less than 10%, if he already spared ten people…).

Urgh why am I eve[/QUOTE]
You ever stripped a live handgun off someone?

[QUOTE=Mr. Machette;2861501]You ever stripped a live handgun off someone?[/QUOTE]

2015’s Missing the Point Award is a lock, guys.

[QUOTE=goodlun;2861409]Yeah the dubious and dead paten nature of most “gun disarm” training its hard to imagine ever really getting that serious training.
All and all attempting a gun disarm certainly reaks of a do or die only situation. As in your going to get shot if you do it or not may as well give it a go.[/QUOTE]

I think the whole “dead pattern” thing would just be part of a continuum of the training in a well designed program. Familiarity with the different types of firearms, how they work, scenario training, live drills (with red/blue guns, etc). I know that LEO go through some firearm retention training that can get pretty intense as well.

In the end, it’s like anything else, although a lot more can be at stake than unarmed MA training.

[QUOTE=Wing-Kwan-Fu;2861503]2015’s Missing the Point Award is a lock, guys.[/QUOTE]
And you are the winner!

Congratulations! I bet you haven’t been this proud since you got your cherry popped in jail.

To the idiot troll sending private messages when I decline to respond:

[QUOTE=Mr. Machette private message;2861508]Dawwww. Did I touch a nerve there?
Sorry, dude.[/QUOTE]

Be apprised that jokes about butt-rape on the internet don’t make people scared; they make people quit Xbox Live until the 14-year-olds are at school, which was pretty much my plan with you. Anyway my problem was more that, after I said, roughly:

“Trying to strip a live handgun off of a nonviolent criminal is dumber than Mr. Machette’s sense of humor, which is a lot because that guy is all sorts of stupid in the head, brain-thinking-wise.”

And you said:

“You ever stripped a live handgun off someone?”

I got the impression that arguing with you would not be productive. (Hint: the point you were missing is that I haven’t stripped a live gun off of anyone because I am smarter than you.) I will leave now, for serials; you can continue to think to yourself about anal rape.

[QUOTE=Wing-Kwan-Fu;2861515]Idiot troll won’t let me ignore him:

It was more that, after I said, roughly:

“Trying to disarm a pistol-wielding nonviolent criminal is dumber than dumb.”

And you said:

“You ever stripped a live handgun off someone?”

I got the impression that arguing with you would not be productive. I will leave now; you can continue to think to yourself about anal rape.[/QUOTE]
Well it’s a simple yes or no question. The point of which was to determine your level of real life experience with this subject and practice relative to my own (one successful gun dissarm against someone who was relaxed enough for me to pull it off because they had to much confidence in the psychological impact of their weapon and no knowledge of my personal background which involved practicing dissarms, being good at dissarms and having to act violently in self defense regardless of my emotional state or level of preparedness on other occasions.)

You’re welcome to dissagree but this isn’t the right place for a flame war. Start a thread in YMAS and we can have some fun.

[QUOTE=BKR;2861506]I think the whole “dead pattern” thing would just be part of a continuum of the training in a well designed program. Familiarity with the different types of firearms, how they work, scenario training, live drills (with red/blue guns, etc). I know that LEO go through some firearm retention training that can get pretty intense as well.

In the end, it’s like anything else, although a lot more can be at stake than unarmed MA training.[/QUOTE]

The thing is the average LEO has a gun on them as well.
Empty hand vs gun is rarely a good idea.
Certainly if you think your going to get shot one way or the other I say go for it.
Where that line actually is in the sand is hard to say with you know not being in the situation.

You have shit like this out there
https://www.facebook.com/MixedMartialArts/videos/vb.50312224788/10153460700199789/?type=2&theater&notif_t=like
Which looks fucking fantastic but odds of it working with out the guy standing there just so with his arm just so with no real consequences of missing it and you know being able to initiate when the action starts.
But this is the shit you see for empty hand gun disarms.

[QUOTE=BKR;2861547]
Staying in good physical shape and not overweight might be near the top.[/QUOTE]

I hate to say anything given my current weight but man I see a lot of really fucking fat cops especially when I am walking around downtown.

[QUOTE=BKR;2861313]The Goshin Jutsu (no kata) of Judo has 3 pistol disarms in it.
Pistol

Shomen-zuke (Pistol at the Abdomen)
Doshi-gamae (Pistol Held at the Side)
Haimen-zuke (Pistol against the Back)

I have no idea how “realistic” or workable they are.

I gotta agree with Rabbit, RIP the guy in Brazil, and I really feel for his family.[/QUOTE]

BKR might know this, but others who were surprised by the above might be interested to know that Goshin Jutsu postdates Kano Jigoro’s death and is an addition to Judo by way of Aikido (albeit by a guy who was apparently sport-oriented).

[QUOTE=Wing-Kwan-Fu;2861570]BKR might know this, but others who were surprised by the above might be interested to know that Goshin Jutsu postdates Kano Jigoro’s death and is an addition to Judo by way of Aikido (albeit by a guy who was apparently sport-oriented).[/QUOTE]

The Goshin Jutsu was put together by a committee (mid 50s if I remember correctly). Tomiki Kenji was on the committee, but the techniques themselves are not purely from aikido. In fact, what they do in aikido is ju jutsu (technique wise)…

It was intended to update the older Kime No Kata, which revolved around more “feudal” type situations.

I’ve done Goshin Jutsu, but am far from an expert at it, or even moderately well practiced. The techniques themselves “work” (some more practical than others), but the scenarios can seem a bit…odd.

I’ve been told that it is supposed to illustrate principles more than practical, and it does in terms of mai-ai (distancing) for sure.

Tomiki is an interesting character…was in prison in Manchuria (I think) for quite a while).

http://judoinfo.com/tomiki.htm

[QUOTE=goodlun;2861551]I hate to say anything given my current weight but man I see a lot of really fucking fat cops especially when I am walking around downtown.[/QUOTE]

Sure, me too, although I’m not an incipient fatty like you. I would think the COP or Sheriff would have something to say about that kind of thing.

At least this guy isn’t a fatty…

Definitely not a fatty, so good example:

Ever see the guy on her right downtown ?