[quote=colonelpong2;2025228]someone mayy have answered this already, but there is a copy of what appears to be some kind of formal military service confirmation type thingama thing (I have no idea what they call these in the US). You can find it on the phonies link listed previously by clicking the blue “Actual Records” part.
It indicates less than a yeats service spanning 1980-1981[/quote]
Its called a DD-214. But getting one if you are not the Veteran or the next-of-kin is close to impossible.
[quote=Machiavelli;2228350]Its called a DD-214. But getting one if you are not the Veteran or the next-of-kin is close to impossible.[/quote]You’d be amazed what you can get under FOIA.
[quote=colonelpong2;2025228]
It indicates less than a yeats service spanning 1980-1981[/quote]
I’m sorry, what was that word? YouTube - What is a Yoot?
"At the Aspen Academy of Martial Arts Dan’s first wife approached me and told me that her daughter, Diana Lee Inosanto, had a crush on me and if I would be willing to take her to the dance that the Academy was having on the last day. I was 16 years old, she was 14, and it was a nice pleasant one-time date. "
So I have to ask. Where do people draw the line between “I don’t care about the instructors issues as long as he teaches good stuff” and “I don’t care how good the guy is I’d never associate with a person like that?”
In almost every online debate I have read (or participated in) about martial arts instructors who inflate or entirely create their military/LE experience it seems to eventually boil down to those two choices.
In the end I guess all that matters is everybodies personal opinion on the issue. We are all free to associate with who we wish and spend our money where we want. It has always been my opinion that there is nothing martial arts related that is SO important that it would be worth dealing with someone who had character flaws that I found hard to overlook. There is always someone else out there to study with. But I acknowledge that not everybody else feels the same…however I have to ask, if Bobby Joe Blythe was the best martial arts instructor in the world would people say the same thing?
Perhaps that’s a bit of an unfair comparison to guys like Wagner or Gyi, but I think that the concept of "what am I willing to tolerate for the sake of ‘good stuff’ " holds somewhat.
A substantial lie or lie told in the military/martial arts context would do it for me. I would be willing to forgive a drunken line of bullshit in a bar that was told once. This can be called the “Sting tantric sex lie rule”.
[quote=tgace;2240154]So I have to ask. Where do people draw the line between “I don’t care about the instructors issues as long as he teaches good stuff” and “I don’t care how good the guy is I’d never associate with a person like that?”
In almost every online debate I have read (or participated in) about martial arts instructors who inflate or entirely create their military/LE experience it seems to eventually boil down to those two choices.
In the end I guess all that matters is everybodies personal opinion on the issue. We are all free to associate with who we wish and spend our money where we want. It has always been my opinion that there is nothing martial arts related that is SO important that it would be worth dealing with someone who had character flaws that I found hard to overlook. There is always someone else out there to study with. But I acknowledge that not everybody else feels the same…however I have to ask, if Bobby Joe Blythe was the best martial arts instructor in the world would people say the same thing?
Perhaps that’s a bit of an unfair comparison to guys like Wagner or Gyi, but I think that the concept of "what am I willing to tolerate for the sake of ‘good stuff’ " holds somewhat.[/quote]
Sam’s response for sure… and in fact there are a lot of guys I know who do talk shit when socializing. They can back it up is all and they can be forgiven because some of these teachers had a lot ot trauma to deal with.
But on the subject of inflating credentials in a willful way, things change a lot. First what about people who have the experience? I risked life and limb as a college aged youth to bounce so I could learn about th enature of what I teach… Including being shot at BTW. Should some jerky boy who dresses like a biker and talks tough be allowed to claim that same experience? I don;t think so.
Military wise some of us trained with guys who saw real action and there is a difference: You come to my class and ask about my basis for teaching I tell you that my teacher who taught me was in Nam and Korea and he taught me… I would not claim that I saw military action.
I use myself as an example because there is a way… People like Wagner do not have to inflate, I never had anyone turn away from me when I am honest. The problem is that some people do not have ethics. Should we all suffer because? And the liability should be on a person;s conscience! If I am unsire of something I call my teachers. When something is inflated your teachers probably have something to say about that
Your other issue about whom to study with is a bot more complicated… its a good question! My own opinion is that there are a lot of fucked up people who are great martial artists… If you decide to learn from an individual of this nature I would ask myself this question: Does this individual want me to harm anyone? If so then Now a days I do no cross that line, I had to learn that esson the hard way though. The second question is are you going to apply your skills learned for the greater good? Thats what I try to do. I will never teach just for financial gain and i will ne ver turn a student away just because they cannot pay. But I do expec people to operate for the good guys thats my concession. But frankly that is a question everyone has to ask for oneself
[quote=tgace;2240154]So I have to ask. Where do people draw the line between “I don’t care about the instructors issues as long as he teaches good stuff” and “I don’t care how good the guy is I’d never associate with a person like that?”
In almost every online debate I have read (or participated in) about martial arts instructors who inflate or entirely create their military/LE experience it seems to eventually boil down to those two choices.
In the end I guess all that matters is everybodies personal opinion on the issue. We are all free to associate with who we wish and spend our money where we want. It has always been my opinion that there is nothing martial arts related that is SO important that it would be worth dealing with someone who had character flaws that I found hard to overlook. There is always someone else out there to study with. But I acknowledge that not everybody else feels the same…however I have to ask, if Bobby Joe Blythe was the best martial arts instructor in the world would people say the same thing?
Perhaps that’s a bit of an unfair comparison to guys like Wagner or Gyi, but I think that the concept of "what am I willing to tolerate for the sake of ‘good stuff’ " holds somewhat.[/quote]
The problem is that you’ve boiled it down to a false dichotomy.
If there’s only two guys in town, then yes, you may have to choose between them.
But there’s not. There are several notable teachers who have the background Wagner wishes he had and also have the skills & ability to teach.
Why train with Wagner when you can train with them? Why conveniently ignore someone who tells you lies or inflates the truth, when you can go down the street and train with someone legit?
[quote=DerAuslander108;2240490]The problem is that you’ve boiled it down to a false dichotomy.
If there’s only two guys in town, then yes, you may have to choose between them.
But there’s not. There are several notable teachers who have the background Wagner wishes he had and also have the skills & ability to teach.
Why train with Wagner when you can train with them? Why conveniently ignore someone who tells you lies or inflates the truth, when you can go down the street and train with someone legit?[/quote]
That’s about it…and pretty much what I was trying to convey. My “two choice” decision is intended to address what I see with these “big names”, like Wagner or Gyi. I almost always hear the “ignore all that stuff hes a GREAT martial artist” rationalization.
Im with you on your point though. Is there really nobody “as good” that you could go to?
Although I would go as far as to say that I believe that even if there are only two guys in town…and they are both douches…screw em’ both. The idea that you just “have to” study with someone who is of questionable character because he is all there is a bit “LARP’y” to me.
[quote=tgace;2240500]That’s about it…and pretty much what I was trying to convey. My “two choice” decision is intended to address what I see with these “big names”, like Wagner or Gyi. I almost always hear the “ignore all that stuff hes a GREAT martial artist” rationalization.
Im with you on your point though. Is there really nobody “as good” that you could go to?
Although I would go as far as to say that I believe that even if there are only two guys in town…and they are both douches…screw em’ both. The idea that you just “have to” study with someone who is of questionable character because he is all there is a bit “LARP’y” to me.[/quote]
Here is another part of the problem: People being lazy. If you realy want you can find guys who rock but if they are more than an hour away people can’t be bothered. If I wanted to study au haute cuisine I would have to go to a chef who knew the preperation techniques nobody would say “oh just go to yout local french eating establishment.” Yet people want a local gym to teach the intracacies of real self defense training. Maybe for a begginer wanting to cut their teeth but when you get into the practice sacrifices have to be made to study with people who know what the fuck they are doing.
Also there are newbies who have no idea what’s legit and what’s not. Some poor sucker gets ripped off by someone like Wagner thinking he/she is learning real skills only to find out that it doesn’t work when they need it.
Is the discussion still about Jim Wagner? I don’t have time to go back through each page. I got through the first few, this last page seems way off topic?
Bottom line is that Wagner talks a lot of theory and most of us need to see technique.
Indeed. Because these guys prim and prime oneself to be exactly what all the sterotypes are that tell a newb what a martial arts instructor should be. Meanwhile guys like Doran Navon who I have seen do some fantastic things, well they look about as military as the teenagers on Haight Street out here!
Wagner and a lot of others are media creations that tae every facile stereotype and add it to their profile, then they dress up and put on a good PhilElmor eyebrow twirl and everybody thinks they know what they are doing.
Jim who??? Naw man Black Belt Magazine always has real Martial Artists
Basically if you don’t have a lot of trophies or you don’t have a pedigree and endorsement from some big name martial artist, and you don’t have mussels poking out like a GI Joe action figure people are going to find ways to cut you down to their level.
wagner took a lot of high line training in terrorism and such. I am not interested in that sort of thing but he’s done right good with it.
[quote=Kickbox;2241754]Basically if you don’t have a lot of trophies or you don’t have a pedigree and endorsement from some big name martial artist, and you don’t have mussels poking out like a GI Joe action figure people are going to find ways to cut you down to their level.
wagner took a lot of high line training in terrorism and such. I am not interested in that sort of thing but he’s done right good with it.[/quote]
What does this have to do with Wagner’s background inflation?
[quote=Kickbox;2241754]Basically if you don’t have a lot of trophies or you don’t have a pedigree and endorsement from some big name martial artist, and you don’t have mussels poking out like a GI Joe action figure people are going to find ways to cut you down to their level.
wagner took a lot of high line training in terrorism and such. I am not interested in that sort of thing but he’s done right good with it.[/quote]
Yeah there is a student to teacher biase… As well there should be. There is also a bias towards experience, I know because I have zilch in terms of military training and teach combat applications. So what does one do? Make up credentials? or just tell people the truth.
[quote=Kickbox;2241754wagner took a lot of high line training in terrorism and such. I am not interested in that sort of thing but he’s done right good with it.[/quote]
no he didn’t… that’s kinda that point of the whole fucking thread idiot:qtank: