Just for kicks, take a look at Garry Clyman (student of Waysun Liao, who fabricated his lineage for what that’s worth,) who has used an overmystified explanation for jing. (I think he’s confusing the TCM term ching [精] with issuing force [勁].) On his web site, he claims to use his jing to heal people, and make your crotch bigger. I shit you not. Clayman is also a practitioner of NLP fyi.
A perfect example of instructors turning Chinese concepts into complete and utter bullshido.
Internal power causes constipation.
One thing (in my limited experience) a large number of IMA/Taiji instructors don’t like to admit, is that boxing is a perfect example of what they call jing/emmission, rooting, and attacking with the whole body. (It invalidates much of their hard vs soft/external vs internal arguements.)
Even boxing strike are very powerfull, it is not the same thing at all than internal power. The physic process dont work in the same way. To be able to user internal power you need to straight up your spine and move down you shoulders first, but not only. It is really complexe to do, not so fast to learn like a boxing strike (but to do perfectly a boxing strike is a lot of work too)
The big difference in functionnality, a bad boxing strike can be used immediatly, after few lessons of teaching in a real fight. An internal strike need years to do, and if your strike is not good, it will not work at all in a real fight.
By exemple in wing chun, often it is said that you need 4 years before to be able to fight with other martial arts/fight sport, in boxing after two month it is ok.
Boxing uses the power of muscles and speed in fight. Internal martial art used the power of structure (alignment of bones and tendons). To generate a powerfull internal strike, muscles helps, but the more important is the use of the body, the stretching of the tendons and the placement of the body. It is why often internal martial art are said to be good for people when they are getting old because you dont need speed.
I doubt though they have ever questioned WHY you need to be in root or have that particular structure in that moment in time.
If you are not rooted, you cannot do any internal martial art (wing chun, bagua, tai chi, systema …). The technics will not work at all. It is why when a guy see a video of an internal technic, he will think it is fake until he will test by himself, because he cannot fell it. The uses of the body in internal martial art is not normal, and the same technic used by the master, done by a guy who is not a master, will not work at all.
For the structure it is the same thing, hold your structure allow you to affect your opponent (unbalance him is the best word i cand find, but it is not the best description).
A good rooting and a good structure, with an important stretching and good knowledge about the body, allows some of the best masters to do this special demonstrations, which looks like “magic”.
Different internal martial arts have their specificities. But often they bases on the same main principles. Which all come from advanced Indian Yoga and CHinese Chi Gong. Systema moves looks like a lot to some chinese internal martial arts or aikido, personnaly I think it dont come from Russia, initially.
Bottom line is, 90% of these guys will be unwilling to back up or test their theories by crossing hands. And they always have some holier than thou excuise that involves refinement and Taoist sages.
The comments I could do about that is :
-a lot of the student of internal martial art (tai chi, bagua, wing chun, systema …) cannot use it effectively in a real fight, because they dont have the level for it. It is because it is very complicated to do and sometimes they dont have enough motivation for it.
-second thing is martial arts are business. And internal martial arts cannot earn money by competition because it is adapted to self defense, so they earn money differently …
There are special trainings for advanced students.
By exemple for wing chun, advanced students and masters dont fight like in videos about “sticky hands”, it is hidden a little bit. Masters dont want than you take a movie of them fighting.
What can i say after researchs and experimentation about it, is that internal martial arts are efficent but need a much more level and work than normal boxing by exemple. (i tried to fight wing chun masters and advanced students, one systema advanced student and all of them were really strong).
Of course students with only 2 years of experience where not so strong at all.
Found this on you tube, thought it was a little better than a lot of the explanations of tai chi fighting method. Anyone with more experience want to share their views, does what he says make sense?
Well it is a standard tai chi lesson. You know use of the power of your opponent is very classical in asian martial arts…
Tai chi means “ying yang” in chinese, so it is not a martial art itself, there are a lot of differents “tai chi styles” but most time, the most trained tai chi style are wrestling/throw opponents more than striking.
Tuishou is the training to find the oppening to be able to execute the tai chi techniques, like chi sao in wing chun is the training system to find the opportunity to strike.
If you have the rooting/structure in tai chi, wing chun, bagua or other, you will have already a really good bases to learn another internal martial art.
First and foremost, what is the source of your information? If it’s personal experience, how long have you trained in boxing, Taijiquan, or Wing Chun?
[quote=WasteOfTime;2430643]The physic process dont work in the same way.
[/quote]
Please explain what you mean by psychic process.
To be able to user internal power you need to straight up your spine and move down you shoulders first, but not only. It is really complexe to do, not so fast to learn like a boxing strike (but to do perfectly a boxing strike is a lot of work too)
How would you define internal power in the context of a strike?
The big difference in functionnality, a bad boxing strike can be used immediatly, after few lessons of teaching in a real fight. An internal strike need years to do, and if your strike is not good, it will not work at all in a real fight.
You have essentially stated that Taijiquan and the like are inferior arts. While I tend to disagree with this assessment, I am curious as to your reasoning behind it. I am always of the opinion that if something truly works, it can be used effectively sooner rather than later. (As a good example take a look at Zhaobao Taijiquan, or even Chen, which can be implemented without this mystical decade-long training period. And don’t forget Wan Laisheng’s methods. He was the one who was said to have defeated Yang Chengfu, in case you are unfamiliar with the name.)
I have seen the “wait for 10 years” line used by frauds trying to retain their student base. Just my assessment…
Boxing uses the power of muscles and speed in fight. Internal martial art used the power of structure (alignment of bones and tendons).
Are you saying that it is possible for the human body to move, strike, or perform anything without the use of muscle? If so, I suggest going back to human anatomy 101.
Again, what sources are you citing here? If you are blindly repeating old sayings, that’s not much proof at all.
To generate a powerfull internal strike, muscles helps, but the more important is the use of the body, the stretching of the tendons and the placement of the body. It is why often internal martial art are said to be good for people when they are getting old because you dont need speed.
What have you done to compare the two? Have you efficiently tested both methodologies, and are they really that different? What is the source of your information, and how did you come to this conclusion?
Again, if it’s merely blind repetition of anecdotes and old stories, you don’t have much to back up your opinion.
If you are not rooted, you cannot do any internal martial art (wing chun, bagua, tai chi, systema …). The technics will not work at all. It is why when a guy see a video of an internal technic, he will think it is fake until he will test by himself, because he cannot fell it.
The elements of “rooting” are present in almost every martial art or combat sport. It’s just that some people will stubbornly deny this fact. A boxer has to have a good base for a powerful body blow. A grappler will need solid footing before lifting an opponent, etc. It’s basic human anatomy and physics. Others can phrase this better than I…
The uses of the body in internal martial art is not normal, and the same technic used by the master, done by a guy who is not a master, will not work at all.
In other words, if you are not an old Chinese man who has trained for 60 years, you can’t use mystical internal arts… hm…
For the structure it is the same thing, hold your structure allow you to affect your opponent (unbalance him is the best word i cand find, but it is not the best description).
This again, is an element present in MANY arts you would probably consider “external.”
A good rooting and a good structure, with an important stretching and good knowledge about the body, allows some of the best masters to do this special demonstrations, which looks like “magic”.
See above.
Different internal martial arts have their specificities. But often they bases on the same main principles. Which all come from advanced Indian Yoga and CHinese Chi Gong. Systema moves looks like a lot to some chinese internal martial arts or aikido, personnaly I think it dont come from Russia, initially.
It probably didn’t. There look to be elements of Taiji, Bagua, and maybe Aikido throwin in for good measure. Historically, I haven’t found any solid base for it. But that’s for a different thread alltogether.
The comments I could do about that is :
-a lot of the student of internal martial art (tai chi, bagua, wing chun, systema …) cannot use it effectively in a real fight, because they dont have the level for it. It is because it is very complicated to do and sometimes they dont have enough motivation for it.
So essentially useless unless train for a very long time? See my earlier statement about effectiveness.
-second thing is martial arts are business. And internal martial arts cannot earn money by competition because it is adapted to self defense, so they earn money differently …
I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about… but it sounds like the vast majority of bullshit schools that charge you money for hand waving and deep breathing. Useless, unless you were looking for Qi Gong.
There are special trainings for advanced students.
By exemple for wing chun, advanced students and masters dont fight like in videos about “sticky hands”, it is hidden a little bit. Masters dont want than you take a movie of them fighting.
Again, elements of bullshido, which need to be weeded out if CMA is to survive and be taken seriously.
What can i say after researchs and experimentation about it, is that internal martial arts are efficent but need a much more level and work than normal boxing by exemple. (i tried to fight wing chun masters and advanced students, one systema advanced student and all of them were really strong).
Of course students with only 2 years of experience where not so strong at all.
Again, what experience do you have in these arts, how long have you studied them, and what basis are you using for these comparisons?
Thank you for clearing that up. Until now, I was under the erroneous impression that “Taijiquan”, literally translated, meant “Supreme Ultimate Fist”. I was also under the impression that the chinese for “yin yang” was…um, “yin yang”. Silly me.
Bullshido. Fun and educational.
[quote=Nicko1;2430650]Thank you for clearing that up. Until now, I was under the erroneous impression that “Taijiquan”, literally translated, meant “Supreme Ultimate Fist”.
[/quote]
Crap, I missed that one… push ups to you sir.
However, I have to argue, that over the years Taijiquan has become the
Grand Hypothetical Fist.
WasteOfTime- could you please make a video of yourself doing these “internal” strikes?
I should show a video of my internal punch.
WasteOfTime- thanks for posting some videos, but I was specifically asking if you could post some videos of yourself doing these things, not other people. IMAs are full of people who are like parrots- they talk about how great their art is and how after a decade of practice their punches are devastating, but these people haven’t spent a decade in their art and can’t do what they say they can, so a video of you would go a long way.
You believe in Santa Claus?
wasteoftime, i think you should change your username to “wasteofoxygen”
so who did you study MMA, muay thai, and sambo under? for how long? what was your competition record and do you have video of you fighting in the cage?
i think you are full of shit and don’t know what you are talking about OR you are just trolling.
[quote=Ming Loyalist;2430729]wasteoftime, i think you should change your username to “wasteofoxygen”
so who did you study MMA, muay thai, and sambo under? for how long? what was your competition record and do you have video of you fighting in the cage?
i think you are full of shit and don’t know what you are talking about OR you are just trolling.[/quote]
LOL…and they think I’m harse.
[COLOR=#2ba8ec]Ming Loyalist[/COLO"]Ming Loyalist - Member Profile - Bullshido
Are you this sort of the guys who thinks that groin kicks doesnt work ?
Is that the one where you internally remove someone’s kidney? Good clean fun for the whole family.
Wasteoftime you have chosen a suitable name for the content of your posts
No I choosed this name because i thought to try to open the mind of people here was a waste of time, and I was right 
[quote=WasteOfTime;2430739]
Are you this sort of the guys who thinks that groin kicks doesnt work ?[/quote]
Under what conditions?
While wearing a professional Muay Thai or boxing groin protector?
While wearing a cup?
Freeballin’?
What?
Actually you are rambling, and not directly addressing your background experience in these arts.
How long have you studied:
MMA- ( and what went into this MMA training)
Muay Thai
Sambo
Systema
–whatever other arts you mentioned?
Hod did you gauge the difference in “internal” and “external” strikes? What criteria did you use to gauge this difference?
How did you gauge the use of these different muscle groups in “internal” vs “external” strikes? What method did you use to compare and contrast the two?
What makes you think one art uses the core/abdominal muscles and the other one doesnt?
madmonkey it is stupid to post a tai chi movie and ask for some explanation for structure and rooting if you don’t want to hear it
Have you considered that the explanation is inept, and presented poorly, or is that simply impossible?
[quote=WasteOfTime;2430739]
Are you this sort of the guys who thinks that groin kicks doesnt work ?[/quote]
Define “work” and we’ll talk.