hi all, i was wondering if anyone has trained with wong shun leung, or heard stories about him…ill keep this open ended, im interested in any information about him…training methods, funny anecdotes…anything!
thanks.
Musushi, I just got back from Vancouver, BC after getting some training from Master Eric Li who is a student of Ip Ching. He told me a good one.
Of course you know Wong Shun Leung was notorious for fighting, well he had one flaw and that exposed by Choy Lay Fut stylists that he fought. The would able to get in low on him from dropping their stances and coming in up under the guard.
Wong Shun Leung went to Ip Man with this issue and Ip Man asked him why didn’t he just Gohn Sao (lower block), Wong Shun Leung said that he hadn’t learnt that yet since at that point it was first introduced when the student would move onto the dummy. So because of that it was added to Sil Lum Tao.
I have seen pics of him with a knife cut under his arm after he got into a street altercation with a knife fighter.
I hear hear he was a good fighter when he was younger. But it seems he lost alot of it when he got old.
<i>I hear hear he was a good fighter when he was younger. But it seems he lost alot of it when he got old.<i>
Let’s be honest, even if you were to stay sharp and trained continuously for 24+ years since you were 16, you are not going to be as strong or fast as someone in their prime. The only thing going for you is experience and knowledge. Many of the old world martial artists got into fights to enhance and improve their fighting skills, not much more different than today except martial artists had honor in those days. Not the politicking BS that goes on today.
From what i know, he WAS Bruce Lee’s main teacher/instructor in H/K (at the Yip Man school). He also was a real fighter, unlike William Cheung. I have studied under one of his students and I must say that i have yet to learn how to apply what I have learned. Perhaps if i had been able to study under him directly things might have been different. As a youngster i saw a beta-max copy (i think it was??) of tape of him as a young(er) after being on the set of “enter the dragon” that showed some of the things that he had worked with Bruce on. I only know of 3 w/c fighters that ever backed up what they claimed. He and Bruce were two of them. The other shall remain nameless for fear of starting another w/c controversy.
Originally posted by fencesitter
I only know of 3 w/c fighters that ever backed up what they claimed. He and Bruce were two of them. The other shall remain nameless for fear of starting another w/c controversy. [/B]
How do you “know” that Bruce and WSL “backed up what they claimed?”
Ever meet them? Or have you gained this insight through Beta tapes?
How many WC people have you met that didn’t “back up what they say?”
Just wondering?
I’ll be happy to reply in what ever capacity I can. My appologies, if it is not a complete answer. Disclaimer: Everything I know is based on research that I conducted when I first began to study wing chun. I never actually witnessed any of this first hand, as I was born the year that Mr. Lee died.
I have read several biographies and additional first hand accounts. In Hong Kong, Bruce Lee is known to have started many brawls. He was actually quite the antagonist from what I hear. Not a nice guy at all. He would pick fights with other schools and not necessarily with people of the same level of experience. He picked on begginers as well as experienced fighters. (http://members.tripod.com/stickgrappler/wck/wslbl.html) After arriving in the US, he picked many fights. These are very well documented (http://www.angelfire.com/pa/99vs66/1980.html)
Hope that helps answer your question. RE: Master Wong, it is more difficult to fin first hand accounts of him on the internet in english. If you speak chinese, there are many more accounts of his adventures as a younger man. He backed out of quite a few fights, but those he was forced to fight in, he won hands down.
BTW, I am by no means a nutrider. In fact I am now very skeptical of wing chun. My personal opinion is that only very few and very skilled people can actually be successful fighters within this art form. I have seen so many people that say the “teach” wing chun, yet have never proven their skills in a real confrontation. Again, that is only my personal opinion. I think anyone reading this can at leat admit that I am entitled to that.
Good Luck.
matzahbal says
Of course you know Wong Shun Leung was notorious for fighting, well he had one flaw and that exposed by Choy Lay Fut stylists that he fought. The would able to get in low on him from dropping their stances and coming in up under the guard.
From what I heard this is not true. He was only hit once low before he learned gang and that was like 6 months or so after he started wing chun. The guy dropped on a knee and did a low punch hitting Wong. Yip Man didn’t add the low gang to Sil Lim Tao based on what he said…it was always there and in the Sil Lim Tao Chan Wa Shun taught him. The only reason it was not there in the version he taught later was b/c Leung Bik his alleged second sifu was a shorter man and his version had jum only instead. Chan was a big man so he needed to use it more for lower attacks. There is a slight chance I got the reasons mixed up with the two sifus but I think this is correct 
fencesitter says
He also was a real fighter, unlike William Cheung
and you say you don’t want to court controversy?!? from what I have heard many who knew William when he was younger and actually saw his fights believe otherwise. One source who was in Australia when William was there saw him win in a multiple opponent fight. William was also allegedly a triad fighter who took turf for them.
and you say you don’t want to court controversy?!? from what I have heard many who knew William when he was younger and actually saw his fights believe otherwise. One source who was in Australia when William was there saw him win in a multiple opponent fight. William was also allegedly a triad fighter who took turf for them.
touche. Point well made and taken. I have also heard these stories, but have never been able to confirm them via periodicals or written account. It would be very easy for me to say that because I have never seen evidence then it does not exist (and I did kind of do that earlier) but I will refrain from any further slandering. Further more, I retract my earlier comment. I admit it was a cheap shot.
It just frustrates me that if he (cheung) knows about “real” combat so much, why does he not pass that info onto his students? I studied a bit under one of his students (one of two in in L.A.). I have never once seen any evidence of them taking up a real challenge. Not to mention that their Wing Chun forms are the farthest thing from traditional (which is what they claim in the first place). I admire sifu Joe Saya for his speed, but as far as combat application, I have never seen it.
Maybe its something they only teach their most loyal students. If so, then they should only accept money from their most loyal students. If I pay good money to learn W/C (as people call it here in this forum) as a self defense art, I should be taught real world applications.
this is why the Emin incident is so funny. My opinion is that good fighters might mean win against untrained people or people only skilled in what they (wong shun leung, william cheung, etc) were knowledgeable in i.e. chinese martial arts opponents. Back then grappling was not so huge and these fighters were not necessarily exposed to them. That is one example. You have to look at who they were fighting too and chances are those opponents, as well as guys like Wong and Cheung, would not fare well against the MMA fighters of today
As for Cheung and his techniques yes I agree I think they are crap. However even crap done well can be used against people sometimes. Depends on how good he is at using it and also on the quality of those he is using it on
I agree with you there as well. I took Judo as a kid. Not the Judo of old that later turned into jiu jitsu, but the judo of modern Japan used mainly in competition (no strikes). I have serious issues with hand to hand combat applications there as well.
At this point I am disillusioned with most MA and MMA. Why MMA? well, I’m one of those guys that likes to practice alone as well as with a partner. I do it mostly for physical and mental fitness. The mental benefits of JJ or BJJ are debatable. And lets face it, the most effective bjj practice is with another person. So now I’m looking to bagua/baji to maybe make that mind/body connection and be able to do it at home on my own where I have the most time to practice. The idea of practicing with a wooden dummy is really cool and one of the reasons I took up Wing Chun. It is still fun! I just don’t feel the mind connection there.
I am outwardly and inwardly contradicting myself left and right; I realize this. Its just one of those divides (fork/crossing) in the road phase that I am tying to sort out.
I think part of the problem is that people sometimes make the mistake of thinking that ‘famous’ wing chun teachers are the best wing chun teachers.
guilty as charged
Originally posted by fencesitter
[B]
It just frustrates me that if he (cheung) knows about “real” combat so much, why does he not pass that info onto his students? I studied a bit under one of his students (one of two in in L.A.). I have never once seen any evidence of them taking up a real challenge. Not to mention that their Wing Chun forms are the farthest thing from traditional (which is what they claim in the first place). I admire sifu Joe Saya for his speed, but as far as combat application, I have never seen it.
[/B]
Rick Spain, my sifu, was a live in student of Cheungs in Melbourne studying under him from 1975. He won the 1982/3 World Full Contact Kung Fu Championships in Hong Kong. He has as much real combat and ring experience as you could ask for and teaches as such.
Do some more research brother.
SiFu Duncan Leung has quite a bit of fighting experience as well, he was a disciple of Yip Man and Bruce Lee was actually the one who introduced him to wing chun. I know the most about his fights b/c my SiFu is a student of SiFu Leung. as far as wong shun leung i know he stopped fighting challenge matches after he permanently partially blinded someone in a match. i’ve also read he taught mostly based on his fighting experience and stuck with what he felt worked, no more, no less for the most part. i’ve heard he had upwards of like 60 matches, and all the young guys looked up to him b/c he was part of the group that tested it in the streets of hong kong.
http://live-wirez.gu.edu.au/news/mthomas1742154/Si-Jou%20Rick%20Spain%20-%20Feature%20Profile.htm
Theres some background on my sifu.
here’s SiFu Leung’s website, there are a TON of videos of wing chun on the site. http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/hpageie.html
here’s the page with the movies-
http://www.geocities.com/sifuleungmovies/
Originally posted by sakurabar0x0rz
SiFu Duncan Leung has quite a bit of fighting experience as well, he was a disciple of Yip Man and Bruce Lee was actually the one who introduced him to wing chun. I know the most about his fights b/c my SiFu is a student of SiFu Leung. as far as wong shun leung i know he stopped fighting challenge matches after he permanently partially blinded someone in a match. i’ve also read he taught mostly based on his fighting experience and stuck with what he felt worked, no more, no less for the most part. i’ve heard he had upwards of like 60 matches, and all the young guys looked up to him b/c he was part of the group that tested it in the streets of hong kong.
Hi sakurabar0x0rz:
I can see that you are in NC, and you mentioned that your Sifu was a student of Duncan Leung’s. That means you are train out of either Greenville or Fayetteville (i.e. Mitch or Brian).
Just wondering which one.
Thanks
Rick Spain, my sifu, was a live in student of Cheungs in Melbourne studying under him from 1975. He won the 1982/3 World Full Contact Kung Fu Championships in Hong Kong. He has as much real combat and ring experience as you could ask for and teaches as such.
Fingers, no need to be abrasive. As I mentioned before, my language or use of words are as a result of personal frustration. I appologize if my comments offended you or your sifu.
I have done an inordinate ammount of research. My mother tried to teach me to read chinese as a small boy but I never really stuck with it. I picked it up again when I started doing research on Wing Chun in Hong Kong. I am sorry if I did not encounter your sifu in my research. It is hard to follow each and every lineage from the root to the leaf.
It also seems that our ideas of real combat are a little different. This is not to say that your idea is wrong, not at all, but that mine is different. This thread started with Master Wong as the subject. When I say that he proved himself in combat, I mean that he fought against anyone any time without rules. By no means would I try to say that full contact is not a form of combat. It is. It is. In fact I have heard of people dying in some of these tournaments. I just want to point out that outside of an organized setting you fear for your life to a greater degree. It is survival that you are fighting for. Not first place. Also Master Wong fought hand to hand against many non-kung fu styles as well. I hope I have made clear where I am coming from and how I am approaching the subject.
Again, no offense intended towards your sifu. My experience in Los Ageles with other of Mr. Cheung’s students has been very different from yours. It is possible that I am not considered an “insider” where I trained and so I was not taught how to really defend myself. It could of course be that I am thick in the head and just don’t see what they are teaching me.
If you feel that you are able to defend yourself in a bad neighborhood with what you have learned in Wing Chung, then I have nothing but respect for you. I on the other hand feel very differently due to an eye opening experience that I had not too long ago.
Kind regards.
Hey fencesitter. I was wondering if you had any information about wang kiu’s past. You seem to know quite a bit about this stuff.