'I talk trash and do systema

I see a new club by the name of URBAN SELF PROTECTION in the UK is claiming to be a TOP LEVEL 4 instructor (highest ranking) under jim wagner. however, i have check with jim wagner myself and found this is NOT true. Other parts of his profile also ring alarm bells. Check out the site and let me know your thoughts. w w w.u - s - p . c o.u k. The videos are also painful, as they show students with their hands down in various scenarios, NOT what reality based teaches.

susan

Hi, erm “susan” * wink wink* nudge nudge

Couple of things we don’t allow, in MABS, is calling someone a fake or a fraud with no proof. No, your word and some bad videos don’t count.

Oh and you might want to read this:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72918

So, you using him to claim someone is a fake is quite humorous and ironic…

http://www.u-s-p.co.uk/

In other news - I always find it funny when a site says something like"Street Proven Self Defense" and then their videos show nothing but compliantdemos. With a statement like that we should be seeing a bar room brawl orsomething with some dude in the middle clearing the place out.

[QUOTE=susanwight;2695199]they show students with their hands down in various scenarios, NOT what reality based teaches.[/QUOTE]
looks at style field

Hi There

My name is Pete and I’m the founder of USP.

Firstly I’d like to thank the moderator for pointing out the forum rules which Susan signed up for.

To her credit, she contacted one of my instructors to make her claim, albeit in the same way - no evidence and with rather inaccurate facts.

We had sorted this out, but as this is now on a public forum, I would like to state the USP case!

This is a direct quote from Jim Wagner to Susan via an email which I was cc’d in on:

Yes, back when I first started Reality-Based Personal Protection on January 21, 2003 there was a Level 4 instructor certification, which is mentioned in one of my first published books by Budo International, and it was reserved for police and military defensive tactics instructors. I guess it is my fault for some of the confusion because I should put this on my website somewhere. So, in Pete’s defense, he was not falsely advertising.

Secondly, Susan states that other parts of my profile ring alarm bells, but mentions nothing specifically. I did reply to her with my profile as follows to try and defend my credibility which she had attacked for no discernable reason: (I have not named my law enforcement agency here for professional and security reasons)

I don’t list my full qualifications on my web site for security reasons and because I do not feel I need to. However, in the spirit of defending myself (all be it via email!) I will do so for you so you are able to see I’m not just a copy cat and have my own training and experience which I have put into my own system:

Blackbelt/Instructor Kempo Ryu Karate Kickboxing.
IKMF Krav Maga Instructor G2.
Jim Wagner’s Reality Based Personal Protection system Level 4 and ex director for the UK.
IHR Defensive Tactics Simulation Instructor.
FIST suit Scenario Trainer.
Law Enforcement Unarmed Defensive Tactics Instructor.
First Aid Instructor.
FAST Defence Trained.
MMA Trained.
ESDS Trained.
Close Protection Trained.
Instinctive Point Shooting Trained.
Law Enforcement Counter Terrorism Operator - Explosives Search Team specialist.
15 Years Law Enforcement Experience.

I have also had firearms aimed at me, knives thrust at me, been threatened with syringes, had countless verbal and physical confrontations and been attacked by junkies’ dogs in the line of duty, so I have a great deal of frontline experience.

Hopefully this last paragraph also answers Lionknight’s query regarding being street proven defensive tactics. Many of my students are law enforcement officers and many have used the tactics I have taught them - hence the term: street proven.

Regarding our videos:

We have two types - promotional and training.

The promotional ones are just that - for PROMOTION! - so of course we do have some degree of compliance - we have never claimed otherwise, but if you watch our other videos, it is very clear our TRAINING - and lets face it, that’s what counts - is very realistic with non compliant attackers.

Regarding scenarios and students having their hands down - these videos are published on you tube for students to critique their own training which we encourage and use as an effective and modern day learning tool to debrief.

They have already noted their flaws themselves and are humble enough to allow me to publish their videos anyway. ‘Mistakes’ like this should be included in training videos as this is reality.

Below is a direct copy from an email I received from Susan, retracting her comments - it would have been nice if she had done so on this forum as well to save me having to bore you all with war and peace, but sadly she hasn’t!!:

Hello Mr Lee,

Sorry my email came across a little strong, but i have been let down in the past by many instructors claiming to be some they are not. I have received an email off Jim Wagner this evening providing me insurance of your background.

With that in mind, i would like to attend your classes when i move to Devon next month. I currently live in Bristol.

I know Jim faced a lot of criticism online in the past, but i saw past that as his training was second to none. I’m hoping one day to attend his level 3 course in Germany.

I am also thinking of attending his level 1 course in Devon this coming October.

Once again, sorry for the bad written email, hopefully speak to you soon when i move to Devon

kind regards

susan

I have put a link here that is an open website for people who have trained with me to upload their own honest reviews. Susan has not trained with me, but these people have:

Oops - Just found out I’m not allowed to post links!!! The website is called freeindex - I’m sure if you type in martial arts and self defence in newton abbot you’ll find us and be able to read reviews about our system!

Thanks for your time everyone.

Best regards Pete

[QUOTE=USP Pete;2698772]
I have also had firearms aimed at me, knives thrust at me, been threatened with syringes, had countless verbal and physical confrontations and been attacked by junkies’ dogs in the line of duty, so I have a great deal of frontline experience.

Hopefully this last paragraph also answers Lionknight’s query regarding being street proven defensive tactics. Many of my students are law enforcement officers and many have used the tactics I have taught them - hence the term: street proven.
[/QUOTE]

Don’t have time to go into everything. Got nothing for you or against you but…

How is that proof (proven)?

Thanks for answering.

[QUOTE=lionknight;2695235]http://www.u-s-p.co.uk/

In other news - I always find it funny when a site says something like"Street Proven Self Defense" and then their videos show nothing but compliantdemos. With a statement like that we should be seeing a bar room brawl orsomething with some dude in the middle clearing the place out.
[/QUOTE]

Find any system that advertises and demonstrates their system with bar room brawls.

One problem some newbs and others jumping on the bullshido bandwagon is the lack of respect for compliant training and demos. You must recognize a demo for what it is and what it is intended to be. A compliant demo should show good technique and should not be overly aggressive to a compliant partner, a bit of flashiness can be expected. If technique is sloppy on a compliant partner chances are it will look worse in application. It should be understood that every style does compliant drills what separates the effective styles from the non effective ones is the amount of live training. Problems arise when a system provides compliant demos as evidence for the style’s effectiveness.

Pete’s reply in informative but the resume posted raises an eyebrow.

Blackbelt/Instructor Kempo Ryu Karate Kickboxing.
IKMF Krav Maga Instructor G2.
Jim Wagner’s Reality Based Personal Protection system Level 4 and ex director for the UK.
IHR Defensive Tactics Simulation Instructor.
FIST suit Scenario Trainer.
Law Enforcement Unarmed Defensive Tactics Instructor.
First Aid Instructor.
FAST Defence Trained.
MMA Trained.
ESDS Trained.
Close Protection Trained.
Instinctive Point Shooting Trained.
Law Enforcement Counter Terrorism Operator - Explosives Search Team specialist.
[I]15 Years Law Enforcement Experience.

[/I]There is no information on the systems listed who issued rank and how long each system was trained. I’m not familiar with many of the systems listed at a cursory glance this resume seems a little padded but perhaps for the sake of brevity the poster kept the info on each listed system minimal. Also, what does “MMA trained” mean? The same goes for all of the xx trained qualifiers listed. What does __ trained mean? Have you been to a seminar or spent years in the system?

Looks padded as, Pete, and no, the “I don’t put everything up” excuse won’t fly considering that fixing the kitchen sink seems to be the only qualification you haven’t put up. Can you show us why we should think differently? Please elaborate as jspeedy requested, on the “trained” arts, what level you are at?

[QUOTE=jspeedy;2698798]Find any system that advertises and demonstrates their system with bar room brawls.

One problem some newbs and others jumping on the bullshido bandwagon is the lack of respect for compliant training and demos. You must recognize a demo for what it is and what it is intended to be. A compliant demo should show good technique and should not be overly aggressive to a compliant partner, a bit of flashiness can be expected. If technique is sloppy on a compliant partner chances are it will look worse in application. It should be understood that every style does compliant drills what separates the effective styles from the non effective ones is the amount of live training. Problems arise when a system provides compliant demos as evidence for the style’s effectiveness.

[/QUOTE]

No the problem is people making claims and not being able to provide proof. Where did I jump on some bandwagon saying demos or compliant training is bad?

USP Devon

As I am training with Pete and have trained with Lawrence at the North Devon USP Group I could not help but put in my two peneth.
The training is intense, the principles are simple yet effective, and pass the measure of pressure testing.

MA have something for everyone.

If the average man in the street was attacked with a knife, or by multiple attackers it would have been of more use to him to have done a short spell at USP than years of many other traditional and sport based MA systems.

If I was going to compete at BJJ or compete in the Cage then obviously I would be training at an MMA gym - as it is clear I am likely to get a good drubbing by serious MMA players in their environment, with their rules.

Surviving in the street is different to competition fighting although there is obvious technical cross over. But there is a different mindset. I have a much greater chance of surviving a violent confrontation with weapons and multiple attackers than all the years of grappling and striking training I have done before, as a result of training USP.

In terms of Pete’s integrity - the bloke is a salt of the earth type of guy with an open mind, who encourages cross training, cross trains himself , and takes nothing away from any other Art. He is building a good system, which is ratified by the British Combat Association, has put in the hard work over many years to is more than qualified to do so.

Lionheart - if you have the front to come and train with us you will be made welcome- because we are a good bunch :slight_smile: We look forward to meeting you.

[QUOTE=dshokUK01;2698887]As I am training with Pete and have trained with Lawrence at the North Devon USP Group I could not help but put in my two peneth.
The training is intense, the principles are simple yet effective, and pass the measure of pressure testing.

MA have something for everyone.

If the average man in the street was attacked with a knife, or by multiple attackers it would have been of more use to him to have done a short spell at USP than years of many other traditional and sport based MA systems.

If I was going to compete at BJJ or compete in the Cage then obviously I would be training at an MMA gym - as it is clear I am likely to get a good drubbing by serious MMA players in their environment, with their rules.

Surviving in the street is different to competition fighting although there is obvious technical cross over. But there is a different mindset. I have a much greater chance of surviving a violent confrontation with weapons and multiple attackers than all the years of grappling and striking training I have done before, as a result of training USP.

In terms of Pete’s integrity - the bloke is a salt of the earth type of guy with an open mind, who encourages cross training, cross trains himself , and takes nothing away from any other Art. He is building a good system, which is ratified by the British Combat Association, has put in the hard work over many years to is more than qualified to do so.

Lionheart - if you have the front to come and train with us you will be made welcome- because we are a good bunch :slight_smile: We look forward to meeting you.[/QUOTE]

Mods, can this be moved out of newbietown?

No…

Original title:
urban self protection - FAKE

[QUOTE=dshokUK01;2698887]As I am training with Pete and have trained with Lawrence at the North Devon USP Group I could not help but put in my two peneth.
The training is intense, the principles are simple yet effective, and pass the measure of pressure testing.

MA have something for everyone.

If the average man in the street was attacked with a knife, or by multiple attackers it would have been of more use to him to have done a short spell at USP than years of many other traditional and sport based MA systems.

If I was going to compete at BJJ or compete in the Cage then obviously I would be training at an MMA gym - as it is clear I am likely to get a good drubbing by serious MMA players in their environment, with their rules.

Surviving in the street is different to competition fighting although there is obvious technical cross over. But there is a different mindset. I have a much greater chance of surviving a violent confrontation with weapons and multiple attackers than all the years of grappling and striking training I have done before, as a result of training USP.

In terms of Pete’s integrity - the bloke is a salt of the earth type of guy with an open mind, who encourages cross training, cross trains himself , and takes nothing away from any other Art. He is building a good system, which is ratified by the British Combat Association, has put in the hard work over many years to is more than qualified to do so.

Lionheart - if you have the front to come and train with us you will be made welcome- because we are a good bunch :slight_smile: We look forward to meeting you.[/QUOTE]

Bullshit. What grappling and striking training have you done?

[QUOTE=dshokUK01;2698887]
If the average man in the street was attacked with a knife, or by multiple attackers it would have been of more use to him to have done a short spell at USP than years of many other traditional and sport based MA systems.[/QUOTE]

Could you explain how you are taught to defend yourself against a man armed with a knife please?

[QUOTE=dshokUK01;2698887]Surviving in the street is different to competition fighting [/quote]

Someone should have lurked a bit more…

No, he is 100% correct.

Thing is, training in the dojo is different than surviving on the street. Training with your partners, in the gym, is different than surviving on the street. So, as usual, false dichotomy.

I see what you did there.

I have a much greater chance of surviving a violent confrontation with weapons and multiple attackers than all the years of grappling and striking training I have done before, as a result of training USP.

I dare say having weapons and multiple attackers to call on would be a boon for anyone in a violent confrontation

the end

I’ve said my piece. If you don’t believe me that’s your right, but I have no intention of having an argument with anyone.

Unfortunately Ive found these forums can become toxic 9 oclock juries very quickly which is why this is the first and last time I will use one.

Good luck to everyone in their training though. Pete.

I train in usp and would just like to say what a load of bollocks you lot are talking! how can you judge something you’ve never trained in? I can personally vouch for pete and the usp system, our videos may not be perfect or even that good but they are for us to watch, learn and improve from, not for some muppit to jump on a bandwagon and critisize. Instead of bad mouthing us and commenting on our grammer why not come down and try our system out,and then you can judge and make comments!

Good morning all :slight_smile:

Well where and when did it all go wrong ?

Ok a little about me, over the years I have studied a few different systems and discipline’s and I make no claim to have any definitive answers about anything. I have only opinions which I hope people can respect as much as I will respect others.

I am 5ft 6inches with short legs and hairy feet my ancestors probably sat in fields at the shire going out on occasional quest to save the world from evil creatures with large eyes and big armies, hmmmm maybe why I have the pull towards combat!!! lol

So where is all this going you ask, well to the point.

Firstly this thread was started to question the the claim that USP had any link with Jim Wagner and as we can all see the question has been answered.

I study USP and boxing because they work for me. I have no aim to be a famous cage fighter or a world ranking boxer. I study boxing to keep fit; I find the workout circuits help me to keep fit, strong and healthy. I also enjoy letting it all out on the bags! I also have a short reach and when sparring the Wing Chun I studied in the past has helped me to close the distance. I study USP for self defence, and enjoy working with real life scenarios and situations and using techniques that have been proven to work in true situations.

We all know life is not like the movies and a confrontation is not a show of fancy moves and sound effects. It is about survival, in a ring there are two and in real life there are endless possibilities so can we ever be truly prepared?

I am training to up my odds of survival as are you guys. I enjoy my training as I imagine you all do. I chose USP because it works for me, I take nothing away from any other system. We are all in this to learn and maybe if we spent less time time on here bitching and arguing and got together and trained and worked together we might all learn something and make life long friends.

Neil out :slight_smile:

To use the words of perhaps the most famous ever martial artist: “life itself is your teacher and you are in a state of constant learning” Bruce Lee.