Kosen Judo consists entirely of groundwork. Most grapplers are surprised to find that nearly all of the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu techniques were being practiced in Japan before WW2. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is Kosen Judo’s ground further developed on, but we have already seen the effectiveness of Kosen Judo’s groundwork. Take the battle between Masahiko Kimura (Judo) and Helio Gracie (BJJ) for example. Kodokan Judo, Kosen Judo, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu are very effective grappling styles. For MMA, BJJ is effective. On the street, Judo would be the effective approach. Both styles are effective in their own ways.
You necroed this thread just to post something that isn’t even true?
Great, that was worthy of a bump, some flipping idiot claiming that one style is better for the streetz.
Grow a brain mate.
And Ron Tripp destroyed Rickson in under 30 seconds… your point?
Are we STILL talking about this horse crap???
You tell him, Mr. Tripp, you tell him so hard he hears you back in 2002.
oh god almighty, how i fucking laughed…
thanx for the necro!
[quote=kill_yer_dojo;2277643]Most grapplers are surprised to find that nearly all of the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu techniques were being practiced in Japan before WW2.[/quote]Not really true.
A ton of the classic Gracie Jiu-Jitsu techniques were also independently discovered in Judo. In fact, some were developed in Judo first. If I recall correctly (and someone please correct me if I am wrong) Rolls Gracie first added the Triangle Choke to the curriculum in the 70’s while it appears in Judo instructionals from much earlier.
However, there are a great deal of advanced techniques in BJJ that do not appear in classic Kosen judo. Some are due to the fact that they are restricted by Judo rules (chokes with the skirt of the Gi and leglocks immediately come to mind), and some are relatively recent developments in BJJ (De La Riva, X-Guard, Rubber Guard, etc), and some are variations on the same technique (I almost always see Judo Hadaka-jime taught as an air choke, across the trachea, as opposed to the Mata Leon in BJJ which is a blood choke).
But all that nonsense doesn’t matter, anyway. The only real difference in styles, nowadays, is the rules which they employ. The rules define the viability of techniques, and viability defines usage and development. Take a judo club, and have them compete only in competitions with BJJ rules, and after a while they’re gonna look no different than most other BJJ schools, and vice-versa.
–Joe
[quote=Kung-Fu Joe;2277710]Not really true.
A ton of the classic Gracie Jiu-Jitsu techniques were also independently discovered in Judo. In fact, some were developed in Judo first. If I recall correctly (and someone please correct me if I am wrong) Rolls Gracie first added the Triangle Choke to the curriculum in the 70’s while it appears in Judo instructionals from much earlier.
However, there are a great deal of advanced techniques in BJJ that do not appear in classic Kosen judo. Some are due to the fact that they are restricted by Judo rules (chokes with the skirt of the Gi and leglocks immediately come to mind), and some are relatively recent developments in BJJ (De La Riva, X-Guard, Rubber Guard, etc), and some are variations on the same technique (I almost always see Judo Hadaka-jime taught as an air choke, across the trachea, as opposed to the Mata Leon in BJJ which is a blood choke).
But all that nonsense doesn’t matter, anyway. The only real difference in styles, nowadays, is the rules which they employ. The rules define the viability of techniques, and viability defines usage and development. Take a judo club, and have them compete only in competitions with BJJ rules, and after a while they’re gonna look no different than most other BJJ schools, and vice-versa.
–Joe[/quote]
I would like to elaborate on this whole thing, by quoting my BJJ Black Belt, who is also a Judo Black Belt and a MMA coach “Judo, and BJJ are both Jujitsu, they are only different because of the rules”
neither is better, but the BJJ rules are more allowing they do reduce the amount of time spent on throws, so a BJJ player will be better on the ground than a Judaka, and a Judaka will have better throws, any cases of a judaka being better on the ground and a BJJ player having better throws are freak, and say nothing about the effectiveness of the rule set.
LOL@Hesperus, awesome.
And Rickson, while horrendously over rated, had better newaza than any Judo anything belt ever, and to pretend otherwise is patently ridiculous.
[quote=ICY;2277844]LOL@Hesperus, awesome.
And Rickson, while horrendously over rated, had better newaza than any Judo anything belt ever, and to pretend otherwise is patently ridiculous.[/quote]
You need to get out more.
Neil Adams was and is without peer in the application of armlocks on the mat. The Gracies themselves went to his clinics. A “major” stir came out of it when Adams Sensei pointed out that they were “wrong headed” in some of their armlock concepts.
Several Russian Sambo players were far beyond Rickson as well.
Finally, BJJ and Judo are NOT Jujitsu, period. From Kano’s vision we now have, Olympic and or Sport focus Judo, we have the focus of BJJ/GJJ and many other kinds of Focus; but ALL of them came from Kano’s vision.