How is Catch wrestling similar to BJJ?

What are the similarities that Catch wrestling has with BJJ? Example Josh Barnett got given a BJJ black belt despite never training in it cause of his skill in Catch wrestling

[QUOTE=Anarchy rising;2658242]What are the similarities that Catch wrestling has with BJJ? Example Josh Barnett got given a BJJ black belt despite never training in it cause of his skill in Catch wrestling[/QUOTE]
Hi. Welcome to Bullshido.

The forum you posted in, Advanced Grappling, is for specific questions regarding higher than basic level grappling techniques. You are posing a general, “How do compare styles?” question, and you’re new.

Therefore I have moved your thread to Newbietown. I would advise you to read the stickies, the threads addressing you by your user name at the top of some of the forums, before you post. Some forums are moderated very heavily and some are not. It can be a bit confusing, and the stickies are a handy guide.

To answer your question in a bit of an old fashioned sense, the primary difference between BJJ and CACC style Lancashire wrestling is that CACC emphasizes top position and does not adhere to the “Position before submission” tenet of BJJ. CACC adherents are as likely to throw sub attempts from underneath side mount as from mount.

[QUOTE=jnp;2658247]
To answer your question in a bit of an old fashioned sense, the primary difference between BJJ and CACC style Lancashire wrestling is that CACC emphasizes top position and does not adhere to the “Position before submission” tenet of BJJ. CACC adherents are as likely to throw sub attempts from underneath side mount as from mount.[/QUOTE]

Yup, I usually use this method as “Submission to Achieve Position”. Essentially if you are in a bad position, attempt to submit someone will cause your opponent to move or resist your submission. Hopefully, this creates enough space for you to get into a neutral or dominant position.

A lot of the old time CACC guys follow a different method I refer to as “Fuck you and your dominant position, I’m still gonna break something cause I AM A MAN!” I find this method less effective, but more entertaining.

Welcome to Bullshido.

[QUOTE=Anarchy rising;2658242]What are the similarities that Catch wrestling has with BJJ? Example Josh Barnett got given a BJJ black belt despite never training in it cause of his skill in Catch wrestling[/QUOTE]

Okay.

First of all, that BB was given to him
because he showed up to a tournament and it wound up being gi, to Erik Lent him a gi and awarded him the belt so he could compete in the proper division.

Secondly, the submission before position thing you hear is mostly bullshit. You need to be in a good position in order to hit any submission. Once upon a time you would give up your back to escape mount, though in modern cacc it’s no longer the case. Nowadays what distinguishes CACC from BJJ really, is the lack of gi training, the inclusion of breakdowns and rides normally found in folk style, and the absence of " reverse/dlr/flavoroftheweek guards" that are largely useless in no-gi.

I’ll come back an expand upon this but I got a test to run to.

[QUOTE=Bruiser;2658294] " reverse/dlr/flavoroftheweek guards" that are largely useless in no-gi.
[/QUOTE]

Lol there goes your credibility.

Inb4shitstorm

That statement was subjective…I just hate those guards. At this point of my training I can’t make them work for me.

How about I say they serve me no good now, so I’m not interested in them now, though maybe in a year I’ll love the hell out of them.

Maybe.

[QUOTE=Bruiser;2658294]Secondly, the submission before position thing you hear is mostly bullshit. You need to be in a good position in order to hit any submission. Once upon a time you would give up your back to escape mount, though in modern cacc it’s no longer the case. Nowadays what distinguishes CACC from BJJ really, is the lack of gi training, the inclusion of breakdowns and rides normally found in folk style, and the absence of " reverse/dlr/flavoroftheweek guards" that are largely useless in no-gi.[/QUOTE]
Can you explain the bold text? I get that you’re not saying the phrase “Position before submission” is untrue. I’m curious though, are you disagreeing with the perceived tendency of Catch wrestlers to go for subs from what is typically considered a weaker position, or are you saying they are not in weaker positions when they go for the sub?

[QUOTE=Bruiser;2658314]That statement was subjective…I just hate those guards. At this point of my training I can’t make them work for me.

How about I say they serve me no good now, so I’m not interested in them now, though maybe in a year I’ll love the hell out of them.[/QUOTE]
If you have less than two years of experience, you should be focusing on the basics of the guard position anyway. De la Riva, reverse DLR and rubber guard are not basics.

Let’s not derail this guy’s thread about the merits or downsides of advanced guard styles though.

I’m with JNP on this one.

[QUOTE=jnp;2658326]Can you explain the bold text? I get that you’re not saying the phrase “Position before submission” is untrue. I’m curious though, are you disagreeing with the perceived tendency of Catch wrestlers to go for subs from what is typically considered a weaker position, or are you saying they are not in weaker positions when they go for the sub?[/QUOTE]

No problem. The whole catch is position before submission thing boils down to (in my web arguing experience) leg locks and giving up the back instead of regaining guard. There is the erroneous belief that by going for a leg lock you are giving up a position (we’ll borrow Rickson’s "point of 0, being that in guard it can go either way hence there is no dominance to either player) instead of passing, and taking the sidecontrol/mount/back formula. The reason why I belive that this is false is because if you train leg locks well enough, you are not giving up a position at all; you’ll get the sub or be able to reverse in a worst case scenario. If you see guys like Reilly Bodycomb, they have no problem getting the lock. Also, people seem to forget that you fall onto your back when you get an armbar from mount and no one says that’s giving up position.

If we observe Josh Barnett (who is catch’s best proponent nowadays imo) you will see that he establishes the top position every time (the most dominant aside from taking the back) and goes for a sub from mount.

I haven’t seen anyone dive for a leg lock from mount (taking a kneebar from inside half-guard doesn’t count imo), for example, just because the opponent’s arms were tucked in. Another thing you’ll here is “the take the kimura from side control instead of taking mount” and that’s bullshit because if you’re hitting a kimura and getting the sub, there’s no need to advance position.

Check out:
//youtu.be/1EXqyw8Xx1E

As for as giving up the back, just check out Telles.

If you have less than two years of experience, you should be focusing on the basics of the guard position anyway. De la Riva, reverse DLR and rubber guard are not basics.

Let’s not derail this guy’s thread about the merits or downsides of advanced guard styles though.
I agree. Also playing mostly no-gi, the lack of gi/pant grips through out my training makes me see thing differently.

But I’m also a noob and this just my opinion, so I’ll STFU about it and train.

[QUOTE=jnp;2658326]

Let’s not derail this guy’s thread about the merits or downsides of advanced guard styles though.[/QUOTE]

My bad.

Speaking to the original topic. I feel the major difference is a focus on takedowns and lack of guard development. Tendency to favor submissions that rely more on strength.

I’ve rolled with like 3 catch guys. It’s like rolling with the same person. I find a lack of variety in their style.

[QUOTE=David Koresh Jr.;2658349]My bad.

Speaking to the original topic. I feel the major difference is a focus on takedowns and lack of guard development. Tendency to favor submissions that rely more on strength.

I’ve rolled with like 3 catch guys. It’s like rolling with the same person. I find a lack of variety in their style.[/QUOTE]

Well any sub is going to take a modicum of strength. Coincidentally it’s why Marcello prefers chokes because they take the least amount of strength. I’m not sure which submissions you’re talking about though.

I agree on the lack of guard development and that’s what I meant by the "flavoroftheweek guard’ statement.

[QUOTE=Bruiser;2658345]

I agree. Also playing mostly no-gi, the lack of gi/pant grips through out my training makes me see thing differently.

But I’m also a noob and this just my opinion, so I’ll STFU about it and train.[/QUOTE]

Lol and we don’t train nogi? Why don’t you take your own advice.

(sorry JNP last time)

[QUOTE=Bruiser;2658350]Well any sub is going to take a modicum of strength. Coincidentally it’s why Marcello prefers chokes because they take the least amount of strength. I’m not sure which submissions you’re talking about though.

I agree on the lack of guard development and that’s what I meant by the "flavoroftheweek guard’ statement.[/QUOTE]

It’s about their setup for the submission. It always seemed inferior and didn’t follow the take what they are giving you philosophy of Bjj.

[QUOTE=David Koresh Jr.;2658353]It’s about their setup for the submission. It always seemed inferior and didn’t follow the take what they are giving you philosophy of Bjj.[/QUOTE]
I see.

Huh?

[QUOTE=Bruiser;2658354]I see.

Huh?[/QUOTE]

Yes…

[QUOTE=Bruiser;2658345]There is the erroneous belief that by going for a leg lock you are giving up a position (we’ll borrow Rickson’s "point of 0, being that in guard it can go either way hence there is no dominance to either player) instead of passing, and taking the sidecontrol/mount/back formula. The reason why I belive that this is false is because if you train leg locks well enough, you are not giving up a position at all; you’ll get the sub or be able to reverse in a worst case scenario. If you see guys like Reilly Bodycomb, they have no problem getting the lock.[/QUOTE]
The definition of a good position, in my opinion, is one that is hard to defend against. If your position is good enough, you don’t have to worry about “losing position” regardless of what type of submission you’re attempting. So yes, I agree with all the above. Obviously this is also in congruence with the “Position before submission” mantra.

I personally love kneebars. I know exactly what range of positions are strong enough for me to go for the kneebar without having to worry about losing position. If I start to get out of position, I know I need to stop working for the sub and consolidate and improve my . . . position.

Position!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

For the record 1/2 my submission game came from my early days of studying “Catch”

Where’d you study catch?

[QUOTE=Bruiser;2658386]Where’d you study catch?[/QUOTE]LOL…at the risk of getting blasted shootwrestling tapes.

*edit: A lot of my old sambo comrades did catch techniques like Tony Lopez…so we used to get together and just share and work the techniques out.

[QUOTE=Omega Supreme;2658390]LOL…at the risk of getting blasted shootwrestling tapes.

*edit: A lot of my old sambo comrades did catch techniques like Tony Lopez…so we used to get together and just share and work the techniques out.[/QUOTE]

Fraud!!! Zomg I knew you didn’t has teh real catch/shooto/sambo!!!

Also I believe in leglocks and frequently use them to improve my position. For example omoplata toe hold to side control, rdlr spin under to toe hold to top position.