Hey,
As part of some research I’m doing, I’m trying to track down the 20th Century history of point sparring. I’ve seen people make claims on numerous forums that it’s an American innovation. It seems like Ed Parker’s work to promote tournaments in the West might factor in. But at the same time I haven’t found anyone who can actually say where it began (or cite early examples).
So, I was wondering if you all had some thoughts.
I’ve gotten a bit of feedback on this from another board:
first ever point sparring tournaments were held by the Japan Karate-do Association. AKA: JKA Shotokan. They were Ippon Shobu and took place in the 50’s.
Does this jive with other folk’s knowledge/experience?
Jhoon Rhee ( TKD guy ) takes credit for inventing the foam dipped in plastic shite we all know and love. That’s gotta be a point in your timeline that matters.( I fucking hate point sparring).
That sounds about right. Bare knuckle clean controlled techniques. It started to get popular in the 60’s. I believe it might have been Trias who held the first tournament. I know our organization has been holding its tournament for 41 years.
Hey Fubar,
From my understanding it was Mike Stone who first developed the idea of mass produced padded gloves and kicks. He wasn’t able to get the price down and get them manufactured. He eventually “gave” the idea to Rhee who in turn made it happen.
miguksaram,
Thanks for weighing in. I’ve been interested in understanding if “point sparring” is an “Americanization” of the arts as many claim. What seems to have happened is that the “one hit, one kill” style form of bare knuckle sparring was imported from Japan. And then eventually evolved here (and in other locations) into the modern game of tag we all know and love.
If it interests you:
Tommy Morris, the WUKO’s head referee, in his book on Karate competition, included a short chapter on the history & evolution of point sparring in Europe
He essentially wrote that early bouts were conducted in the “one-point” format. However, because it got boring, the “two point advantage” and later, the “three point” concepts were introduced.
Other rules evolved with the times.
(The source of this is Mr. Morris’ book “Karate: The Complete Competition Course”, published by Guiness)
Hope this Helps
It does, thanks for the ref.
0 Matt
Could fencing have some influence as well? A sort of first blood -> first strike “evolution”?
More likely Kendo and Japanese Fencing. But conceptually you definitely seem to be on the right path.
This is a very interesting project, Matt. If you think about the inherent warrior culture behind Korean and Japanese societies, the idea of their martial stylings developing into “Tag, I WIN!” doesn’t seem to match up.
I’ll dig through some of my old Nakayama books and see if I can find anything for you.
Actually it makes a lot of sense on a number of fronts. Ippon Shobu would tie into Funokosi’s concept of “One hit. One kill.” Considering it was Shotokan Japan that staged the first tourney’s it fits nicely. Plus there were already preexisting Kendo contest rules which they probably piggybacked on.
= Matt
More likely it came from the whole one punch/kill philosophie of alot of earlier martial arts systems .
I’m sure the one strike-one kill phylosophy came out from the Samurai duels.
With a sword, you are likely to kill your opponent with a single slash and all Martial Arts aim to finish the fight ASAP, so… point sparring in unarmed MA as well!
I don’t know if this helps you, but you might want to look into what Master Tatsuo Shimabuku was doing with his dojo in regards to sparring. From what I understand, he was the first of the Okinawan practitioners that had his students wear kendo protective gear so that they could do full contact sparring and actually put to use what they were learning.
Fairly interstedin this myself. I was speaking with an ma associate who’s recently been competing in point fighting and sparring events and after chatting with him about it, I decided that it sounded alot like the reason for the padding and gloves etc was to enable an opportunity for tmaers coming from pressure point orientated systems to actually contact spar and retain base style in a ring capacity without the regular dangers of doing that … hence the rules regarding striking to the head and knees to the torso and so on …
With ‘that’ in mind though, and being ‘kalaripayattu’ was the first fighting art to use pressure points , I have to believe that , while the Indians were probably all too wise and mediatated to get into non -essential drilling ( and that I haven’t actually heard of non-traditional or ring combat mopdified kalripayattu) , and that despite early samurai efforts of fight training along similar lines, that that information didn’t actually ‘get’ to Japan until some time later - to me elluding twd a chinese - vietnamise origin …
I’m not sure I’m buying the Karate root but when I get a chance I’m going to google a bit on it myself … it definately sounds like a sweet approach to doing it in the ring. If anyone has any information pre-Japanese root - would definately appreciate the link.
cheers and thx
Blooming Lotus
Origin of point sparing in martial arts is kendo (through judo).
Judo introduced competitive sparing which proximate grappling combat. Ippon (one) originally represented valid take down, which is proximated to be the fight decider. This was followed by kendo. In kendo, ippon means a strike. If you score two ippon, you win. Gishin Funakoshi based shotokan karate sparing on kendo which is passed on to TKD which eventually evolved into olympic sport.
The main issue is whether the sparing system is a good sport and/or good martial arts, something all system agonise over. Kendo, unlike olympic fencing is not a pure sport. Hitting/bashing object is different from slicing with sword so kendo Ippon must be good enough to be an approximation of sword strike, which is left at the descretion of refs. Most kendo people object to making kendo into pure sport. In original shotokan karate, sparing was non contact, that is a ref will decide whether non-contact (sundome) strike has been a proper strike. Though it sucks from sport point of view, it was valid from martial technique point of view. Alternatively you could pursue two extreme end of spectrum. One is full contact KO based system (kyokushin) which has no future as a mass sport. The other is padd protected point scoring system of TKD which suck as a martial arts.
In my view, BJJ, despite being competitive and tough, actually suck as martial arts because the ground fighting isn’t important in “real” fight and it is precisely for this reason judo restrict ground grappling. This issue been flamed repeatedly here. Still judo now have not only ippon but also wazaari, yukou and koka. It is possible to win olympic judo by exploiting this system. Many judo people consider that this is runing the art. Ippon Judo is a movement within judo to reverse this trend. In my view, judo come closest to solving the paradox of oxymoronic term, combat sport.
Hope this help.
… and the gates of Hell have been opened…
vapour = idiot
tkd = full contact, continuous sparring
point sparring = light contact, fighters separated after each point
Shut Up Janggoon .
you are retarded .
TKD =/= full contact , continuous sparring
Is there any way to limit the History section to people commited to doing actual scholarly work and research, rather than just idiots who want to supply their baseless suppositions and flaunt their nutriding?
Yes I mean both Vapour and Janggoon/Taekwon.