Is it as if we’re gonna play the “this is the history, regardless if it’s true or not” game.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by that.
Which parts of the thread do you think are inaccurate?
Anything after the word “Mitose”
I’m sorry, but I’m afraid I don’t know what you’re trying to say here. Do you object to Mitose? His credentials, or lack thereof? The questions in relation to his place in the history of kenpo? Could you elaborate a little?
I’m sorry I was being a tad flip. Mitose is a lightening rod for controversy. Bishop has well thought out logical, verifible evidence. Yet, still we know there is a histoty that contradicts everything that is said
Fair enough. It does beg the question - why does Mitose seem to feature prominently in kenpo histories?
I don’t understand it. Given that all the accounts I’ve read (sorry - don’t have links at the moment) indicate that he was, at best, a medocre practitioner, and doesn’t seem to have a kenpo background, why is he included in AK history?
Sometimes it’s much more beneficial to be first, than it is to be best.
Pox, I haven’t been bashing Mitose. So far, I’m not impressed with the man’s reputation as a practitioner/teacher of the arts. Now I have an even harder challenge ahead of me, finding out how William Chow managed to become the practitioner he was. I don’t recall much about his training, I just know that he trained under Mitose at some time.
Bishop, thank you for the clarification. Money’s a little tight for me, or I’d want to buy copies of some of the notes you have, but if you have the time, perhaps you could post some of the most important info in this thread.
To whoever asked, no there wasn’t an American Kenpo Karate prior to Ed Parker. There was most certainly emty handed fighting styles, but Ed Parker was one of the main players in bringing Oriental Martial Arts to the Mainland US. It was he who started teaching MA at a university (Brigham Young) back before very many people knew what Karate was. It is said that when he opened one of his first dojos in SoCal, with a sign posted that said Karate Kung Fu, people would walk in off the street thinking it was a restraunt. This might be hard for some to swallow, but without people like Ed Parker and Bruce Lee, many of us just might never have studied the MA we do. That’s not saying that someone else wouldn’t have studied OMA and started teaching it in the US, but these seemed to be the right people for the job. I’m sure both are turning in their graves over what has become of the US MA scene.
Sorry, but I have never sold research information, other then in the form of magazine articles. The research information I’ve contributed to books, websites, and individuals has always been free. (It was given to me free)
I have over 20 years of research, so no I can’t just post the important stuff here. It’s all important, since a whole lot of little pieces of information fit together to make important findings and theories.
If you want to post some specific questions, then I’ll try and answer them, and give you the sources, evidence, or reasons behind any theories.
Well, to start with, who else did William Chow studied with? That’s a major one, because as far as I have seen, I’m not impressed with Mitose, and I don’t see where much of what is now modern kenpo came from through him.
On top of that, a list of books/magazines that you contributed to would be nice.
Well, there was the statements of Professor Chow, that he trained in kung fu under his father Hoon Chow. I have never found any verifiable proof that this is true. But I have never found any verifiable proof that it is not.
He was known to cross train with his brothers who were Danzan Ryu Jujitsu black belts. Most notable was John Chow-Hoon. This was verified by John Chow-Hoon, Wally Jay, and Sig Kufferath.
Over the years Professor Chow claimed to have studied many arts, but no one has ever come forward to claim Chow as a student. Many people have seen him demonstrate kung fu techniques, but they also say that he was excellent at observing techniques, and being able to master them on his own. Wally Jay told me that “Prof. Chow was the fastest karate man he ever saw”. At the time of that statement , Wally Jay had been in the martial arts over 45 years.
As to my writing resume, the short answer is that since 1989, I have had close to 100 articles published in the following magazines: Black Belt, Inside Kung Fu, Inside Karate, Inside Kung Fu Present’s, Inside Karate’s Master Series, Centuron Negro (Spain), Kick (Germany), Martial Arts Professional, Martial Arts Success, Martial Talk Magazine (internet), Martial Info Magazine (internet), and Martial Arts Legends.
I’ve contributed kenpo research to the following books: “The Original Martial Arts Encyclopedia”, by John Corcoran and Emil Farkus. “The Martial Arts Sourcebook”, by John Corcoran, “The Ultimate Martial Arts Q and A Book”, by John Corcoran and John Graden.
And I’m one of the contributors to the upcoming 5 part A&E Channel documentary, "THE GATEWAY “Martial Arts in Hawaii”.
Anyway, since I’m not applying for a job with you, I won’t write out my whole resume here. And everything I’ve listed here is verifiable somewhere on the web, or with the the various editors and writers I’ve worked with.
Hey, John:
Why not post links to other forums where you’ve contributed on this issue,
so you don’t have to go and dig-up the info, again. Or, at least the forums
so anyone interested can go there & use the search function.
Also, maybe you can post the titles of books you either wrote, or contributed
information to, that interested parties can go find, and look at.
People stop buggin John about doing your research for you. In fact, try googling
“John Bishop, Mitose, martial arts, articles” or something like that. . .sheesh!
I’m sure JB would answer short specific questions, but, c’mon. . .do the work.
[/rant]
Sorry. . .
`~.
Glad to see John Bishop posting here. Look around some (Meex’s posts on Kajukenpo are good…) and there is plenty of good stuff and good people amongs the testonsterone ravings and loonies. Not that I don’t rave occasionally myself, but that’s what I like about Bullshido, you can say what you want, you can even call Phrost a bad word and not get banned.
To the thread, M.C. Busman’s info link thread should be read by anyone interested (and note yours truly’s contribution that links to John Bishop’s and others’ thread at martialtalk @ this and related issues). And I sure hope that Lou Klaff writes up his research. Lou has talked to lots of the old guys.
Having spent a year in the now defunct Riverside Martial Arts working out in Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo under Shihan Fred Perales, a bb under Bruce Juchnik Hanshi, all I KNOW is that Shihan can kick my ass with ease (true, that might not be saying much). The style is much more than your typical ma, incorporating Chinese medicine, massage, five element theories, philosophy and teaches fighting at all ranges and some weapons.
p.s. Anyone who wants to gain weight should spend a week in Florence and Verona exploring neighborhoods looking for small family restaurants.
And here is a link (http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154) to a copy made of the Kosho’s official page that seems to be down. Did you know that 400 monks fought off thousands of Samurai using Kosho Shorei Ryu?
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:-t5T8AG7A4YJ:www.collectivesociety.com/skski/KSR.html+kosho+shorei+ryu+kempo+bruce&hl=en&client=firefox-a. same page cached from the Kosho site.
Quote by bushi_no_ki -
Well, to start with, who else did William Chow studied with? That’s a major one, because as far as I have seen, I’m not impressed with Mitose, and I don’t see where much of what is now modern kenpo came from through him.
I assume you mean you are not impressed with JM’s credentials. Judging by the videos I have seen of Bruce Juchnik, that style of kenpo is very similar to the stuff the EP was teaching. PM me on FA.com, I might be able to make you a copy if I can find it.
Fag.
Nah, Grampa. . .
I’m just jealous. I have friends from Houston that were in Venice, and Tuscany when
you were over there, and then went to Rome this/last week. I told them to look
for you, Italy being so small and all [/sarcasm]. I said, “Yeah, look for one kinda
tall Amish guy with one pretty Chinese lady!” -*lol :5hypnodis
My other friend is going to Triste (wherever that is, in Italy) next month so his
wife can rent out her villa (she’s a doctor in Italy). Why she wants to live with
a poor Chinese guy in Oregon is beyond me. . .ain’t love grand?
`~/
One thing I’ve noticed with EPAK is the amount of Hung Gar influence there might be. William Chow apparently knew some Tiger-Crane (John Bishop has a film of Chow demonstrating it, I think), and Hung style was present in its development through Ark Wong and Jimmy Woo. So it looks to me like:
- Some kind of Okinawan Karate (Mitose and probably others)
plus
- Jujutsu (Official Self-Defense Club/Danzan-ryu/Judo in Hawaai)
plus
*Hung Gar (Woo, Wong and possibly Chow)
Other have noted that EPAK techniques seemed more karate-like in character earlier in its history than now.
These are all just rough guesses, though.
John, I do want to thank you. You’ve given me alot more than I could hope to find on google. Now I’ve got a direction to move in if I ever find the time. I’ll check at the local Barnes and Noble to see what they can do as far as articles/books.
MattJ, unfortunately, I’ve been unable to login to FA the last few days. I still haven’t figured out a way, and I’m willing to go through the whole thing of not being able to tell what is new and what is old for a few days now. I’ll keep on trying.
To the others, as stated, I’ve googled names like Chow, Mitose, and Parker several times before, and all I ever saw was the same fairy tale Bullshido over and over, or really harsh criticisms of all three men, by people with no experience in AKK.
You mean self serving bs like this?
"At age 16, Ed Parker began his kenpo (law of the fist) karate training with Frank Chow in 1947. When Frank Chow’s well of knowledge began to run dry, he arranged for his brother, William K.S. Chow, to help Parker reach a higher level. Parker was in awe of William Chow, who for some mystical reason inspired in Parker such a love-at-first-sight reaction that he would make kenpo his life’s work.
After just two years of training, Parker left his home in Honolulu to attend Brigham Young University (BYU) in Provo, Utah. Even with this small amount of training-he had made it to brown belt-he was motivated to continue practicing kenpo while in college. Shortly thereafter, he started teaching it to a small group of college students. Teaching kenpo brought new depths to Parker’s understanding of the art and undoubtedly enabled him to consolidate much of his budo (warrior ways) knowledge. (He had earned a black belt in judo at age 15 and had become a skilled boxer and a veteran street fighter by the time he was 16). By now Parker had begun to conceptualize his own ideas regarding motion, striking and defenses against multiple attackers. Parker not only enjoyed teaching but soon discovered a phenomenon that occurred when he explained a technique to someone while simultaneously demonstrating that technique. After several repetitions, he could perform the technique in a “no-mind” state of consciousness. Consequently he soon developed his physical skills to the level of someone who had been training for many years.
In 1951, after his sophomore year at BYU, Parker signed up for a three-year tour of duty with the United States Coast Guard. Fortunately he was stationed back home in Honolulu where he could be near his family, friends and his future wife, Leilani Yap. Parker’s return to the island made it possible for him to continue his training with Chow whenever he was in port. Two years into his stint with the Coast Guard, Parker realized what was perhaps his biggest dream: On June 5, 1953 he was awarded his black belt in kenpo from William Chow. During the next year Chow taught Parker more of the “master key movements” that he would later need when he restructured and standardized what was to become American kenpo karate.
Parker went back to college in September 1954, just one month after his .discharge from the Coast Guard. It wasn’t long after his return to BYU before he was once again teaching kenpo karate, this time in the wrestling room of the school’s athletic department. In December 1954 Parker had the opportunity to demonstrate his martial arts skills during a basketball game between BYU and UCLA. The demo was so successful that word soon spread to law-enforcement agencies, and Parker found himself teaching self-defense to police officers from across the state. When the next semester began, BYU was offering college credit for law-enforcement officers who enhanced their hand-to-hand skills under Parker. Before returning to college, Parker was under the impression that he and Chow would at some point open kenpo karate schools on the mainland. The fact that this joint venture never materialized had lasting consequences. While Parker was disappointed that he would have to go it alone, he was free to develop his own form of kenpo without interference."
…
anyway, if he was training under Chow and got his bb in 1953 in Honolulu he was taining with all sorts of people. As Lou put it, " Most people don’t realize that all these guys crossed trained in the 40’s through the 60’s with each other…"
I mean really, this gets SO circular and cross fertilized “Professor Eugene Sedeno was born in Hawaii, trained with Professor Walter Godin(who trained with Chow and Joe Emperado)and Sijo Adriano Emperado. He also strained with Martin Buehle [sic] (Buell) and many of the legends of Kajukenbo and Kempo. Much of my history and information comes from him. He also got a Teaching License from Mitose.” And don’t forget that Godin (Kajukenbo) trained with Parker in California and sparred Elvis! (and was told to go easy on him)
Victor “Sonny” Gascon, another Kajukenbo instructor trained with and having moved to California in 1956, and" having grown up on the same block as Edmund Parker, Sonny renewed his friendship with this young Martial Artist, and the two would meet and exchange technique, along with celebrating many Luaus in the warm Pasadena climate."
So there are obvious links to Kajukenbo.
http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KEMPO/kempohis.html
Too bad we can’t ask the guy:
Don’t forget his four years of HS ROTC. . .