A couple of teasing illustrations from Nicholaes Petter’s 1674 manual on the Worstel-konst method of combat grappling:
If anyone knows more on this topic, please share…
There are examples of armed and unarmed ground fighting in the earlier (Renaissance period) combat treatises as well; sometimes they are not illustrated, but the author will say something like “this can also be done when you are wrestling on the ground” in the text accompanying a section on standing techniques.
The Codex Wallerstein, a German treatise from c. 1470, illustrates some very complex Aikido-like techniques in which one fighter is shown pinning down two and even three enemies with arm and neck restraints - see an example here.
Here’s a page of links to western MA manuals.
http://jfgilles.club.fr/escrime/bibliotheque/catalogue_traites.html
Some of these work, some don’t. A few do have some ground fighting in armour and with weapons.
More online WMA resources to digest. Me = Happy man. Thanks guys.
Skummer is THE MAN! when it comes to find these manuals!!! :qleft6:
Is this like the grappling thats been in WC since like the dawn of time?
This is really interesting, it’s like an old school version of what Bullshido is trying to do, but in archaic English:
The Defects of the Teachers
Of Defence, discovered by way of
Objection, and the true use
Thereof set downe in the
Resolution.
Objection I.
Most of the common Teachers use but one forme of place, and teach all men alike without observing the nature of the Scholler, whether he be of a hot spirit or a cold; or whether hee have advantage or disadvantage in length, shortnesse, strength or weaknesse of arme or body.
Resolution.
Hee that shall teach a strong man with a single weapon to runne passages with shift, takes from him the advantage of his strength, who should eyther attend the close, or having length to his strength, should standing offend to the nearest, as in this Booke you shall finde under the title Order for fight: Or hee that shall teach a weake man single weapon or binding passage for the cloke of advantage, forfeites him to a strong mans mercy, though he hath much lesse courage or skill. Whereby the defect in the Objection plainely appears, as in many other, rising from this example.
By the way, that one is from this link: http://thehaca.com/Manuals/FullPSoDtext.htm
STICKFIGHT!
I love these manuals, the language is so funny when applied to serious martial arts manuals, and some of the stuff is priceless. I knew I’d seen some pictures of actual pages of a stick/canefighting manual somewhere a long time ago. You need to go through every page of this one, it’s a classic: http://www.the-exiles.org/manual/lang/lang.htm
Heh, hardcore.
Hey i almost bought that Worstel-konst book once,but it was way to expansive…
damn good thread
Why are people always so stunned that teh Gracies didn’t invent grappling?
because they know nothing of MA history. Hell I’ve read two dozen or so books on MA history, most by actual scholars, and I still know practically nothing. Love to learn though and that is why threads like these are teh b35t.
btw I am in no way suggesting that reading that many books should make one an authority on any subject. CYA.
Because dear Osiris, groundfighting is conspicuous by its abcence in the vast majority of surviving MA texts from the decline of Pankration right up to the Gracie revolution.
I’m not stunned because… I INVENTED GRAPPLING!
Yes, let’s look for ‘hints’ of this…
For fuck’s sake, wrestling was one of the most popular sports in Europe for like 200 years ;)…
Yes, common sense. But…
But what moves did they use on the ground??? Sadly nearly all the historical grappling manuals I’ve seen show only the stand-up moves.
It depends on the style and the historical period. The earlier treatises (Medieval and Renaissance) illustrate a limited number of specific ground fighting techniques, but if you get a translation of the text, there is often a comment like “you can also do this while fighting on the ground” in sections dealing with upright wrestling.
The majority of European folk-wrestling methods avoid ground fighting altogether and focus on clean throws from standing - Cumberland/Westmoreland, Scottish backhold, Cornu-Breton, Icelandic Glima, Swiss Svingen, Irish collar-and-elbow, etc. At least two traditional European wrestling styles do include ground fighting techniques; Lancashire Catch-as-can, which evolved into modern catch wrestling, and “Greco-Roman”, which was actually a late-1800s French reconstruction of the early Greek and Roman forms of wrestling.
Excellent info as always DdlR.
can you tell us more about the origins of Greco-Roman as a distinct style -I always (niavely) thought it was a direct decendant of classical wrestling.