Help me propose the ideal kung fu tournament

Projects and Investigations The 36th Chamber
1

my parent organization throws a tournament every year, and i have been less than enthusiastic about the fighting portions.

i think that the kind of fighting that goes on at most kung fu tournaments is giving us a bad name, and have been thinking about ways to make it better. i’m talking about point sparring and continuous sparring rules here. (no punches to the face, no sweeps to the back leg, no kicks below the knee, no knees, no elbows, no throws, no groundfighting, etc.)

so what should i propose instead?

some of my thoughts:

san shou rules - problem is the added expense of a ring, and all the added expenses that come with a ring.

lei tai rules - same problems as san shou but with a lei tai platform. i have seen this done with no platform as well.

or the idea i have been playing with - modified lei tai rules with limited ground fighting allowed (i.e. knee-down takedowns allowed and some small amount of time allowed on the ground to make your submission - maybe 1 minute or thirty seconds.

the idea here is that if you could, say, do a hip throw to armbar, you could win the fight if they tapped out. the smack girl organization in japan has fights with limits to groundfighting like that, it’s frustrating for someone used to watching full mma, but might be a good middle ground to get kung fu people into more realistic competition.

i would also remove elbows from the current lei tai rules, as that would allow me to do away with the full face cage rule, and allow the use of standard boxing headgear. i would require shooto gloves or the mma training gloves from combat sports. not sure about adding shinguards, maybe require the grappling shinguards from combat sports. the problem with requiring specific equipment is that you have to be willing to provide it.

i’m still not sure we could find a way to afford the additional expense, but before i make my proposal i would like some feedback from you guys.

2

Well you wouldn’t need a full ring for San Shou, just some decent mats.

3

As someone trying to bring more of the “bringing it” to CMA, my advice is baby steps. If there’s no groundfighting in any of the styles that will be representing, it’s probably hasty to introduce it in a tournament. Full-contact may be easier to swallow – even full-contact with throws.

Instead of trying to broaden the rules for moving step push-hands (AKA throwing each other around) for our next tournament, we’ve elected to try to add another event. With a little luck, things will look good (and fun), no one will get injured and everyone else will have to shut the fuck up about safety concerns.

4

so, my thoughts are moving towards a modified lei tai rule set… i hear what you are saying RM, just because i include grappling in the classes, doesn’t mean that enough other schools do, so maybe leaving out the groundfighting portion would be a good idea. however, we keep hearing about TMA schools including grappling in their classes, so maybe there would be some interest after all. they sure don’t seem to be showing up at NAGA (my school is the only kung fu school i have ever seen at a NAGA event.)

regardless i would like to get rid of the restriction against “knee-down” takedowns, since under current lei tai rules if you do a low shoot and your knee touches, that counts as you being thrown, and that’s just plain dumb.

i was thinking that we could keep the current continous sparring ruleset that everyone seems to use, but only run beginner and intermediate divisions that way. then we could run the advanced division with full contact and the modified lei tai rules.

actually even in the beginner and intermediate divisions i would like to require better headgear and then allow face punches, cause it drives me crazy when i’m prepping someone to fight under these rules and i have to suggest retarded tactics like “straight punch to the body and then hook to the head” as an opening tactic. my fighters get DQ’d most of the time right away because they have an instinct to punch to the face and just do it anyway.

5

In the UK a lot of amateur San Shou is done just on mats.

6

Fuck mats! Do it on the hard floor, or better yet, gravel.

I will get back with more ideas once I lift this metric fuckton of work off me. No time!

7

I agree with much of what RM said.
San Shou style tourneys seem to be garnering a fair bit of recognition these days. Some groundfighting would be nice to include, but so few kung fu schools probably practice these skills it would be a safer bet to leave it out , initially anyways.
Throws should definitely be included though. And all you need are mats, not a ring.
No punching to the face is definitely out. If you don’t want people getting hurt then just make them wear sissy gloves.

8

well, the argument for modified lei tai rules as opposed to san shou rules, would be that more kung fu schools favor open palm gloves rather than boxing gloves

i was thinking about requiring these: http://www.combatsports.com/detail_tuf.aspx?ID=22292

i also think people would be less likely to expect a ring if we don’t run san shou rules.

as far as headgear, i was thinking this style would be good. at least we should be able to allow face punches if people had that sort of protection.

http://www.combatsports.com/detail.aspx?ID=22618

or at least this style:

http://www.combatsports.com/detail.aspx?ID=22615

as far as shinguards i was thinking:

http://www.combatsports.com/detail_tuf.aspx?ID=22281

or at least

http://www.combatsports.com/detail.aspx?ID=2225

basicly i want to forbid the use of that shiney foam-dipped crap that you see all over these events.

you know the stuff, it looks like this:

http://www.karatedepot.com/pr-se-002.html

the problem is that i think the insurance rates will go up by quite a lot… i need to find out more about this aspect.

9

UK amateur lei tai/san shou events use boxing headgear (no plastic face shields), mouthpiece and 10oz boxing gloves.

10

i think that there is a general confusion about the terms we are using, because there is no consensus as to what constitiutes lei tai and what constitutes san shou. of course i am interested in how these events are put on in various parts of the world, but for the sake of this discussion of putting on a tournament in the northeast of the us (nyc area) let’s focus on the matter at hand.

in this reigon, when there are san shou/san da events thrown, they are done with the USKBA and usually NY San Da gym. these events are done with boxing gloves, boxing head gear and shin guards. they are always done in a boxing ring… in nyc anyway san shou = ring.

the only other kung fu tournaments in this reigon which feature full contact fights are put on by this group http://www.usckf.org/events.htm and they refer to these fights as lei tai. they use fingerless gloves (http://www.gungfu.com/cart-htm/training_gear_gloves_fingerless.htm scroll down to the ones called cobra gloves) and they use this type of full cage head gear (http://www.gungfu.com/cart-htm/training_gear_protective_gear_head-gear_proforce.htm the ones that say "proforce full face cage, white)

so my point is, the only lei tai around here is in baltimore maryland, and only happens once a year. there are several san shou ring fights set up in the nyc area every year, and since i don’t want to duplicate an event already in place, i have been thinking about changing what i don’t like from the current usckf lei tai rules and creating a new division based on that in my tournament.

i don’t want to confuse the competitors unecessarily, and want to stick with terminology that will give them a good idea of what to expect (even before they read all the rules and specifications.)

also i want to do away with the “boxing gloves don’t allow me to use my uber-effective tiger/mantis/leapord/crane/etc fist” excuse that i hear so much when i ask why certain schools don’t compete in full contact.

i think i have come up with a decent idea (laid out in my last post) but what i want from you guys is to help me tweak it and make it as good as it can be (i.e. # and length of rounds, specific rules, illegal techniques, required gear, etc.)

for instance: shoes? allowed uniforms? 1 x 5 minute round? 2 x 3 minute rounds? 3 x 2 minute rounds? points awarded for various techniques? how long to allow the clinch?

please look at the USCKF lei tai rules to see what i am thinking about changing…

11

I have competed in San Shou under many rule sets.

The best ones have been on a full lei tai, but I have had many good events just on mats.

By far the best rule set as far as I am concerned, and in many ways the fairest and most easy to judge, is:

Any kick or punch allowed as well as ‘safe’ throws, but points are only awarded for putting the other guy down (or for forcing him from an arbitrary area, which you may or may not wish to include). This means that points are clear and weak punches/kicks (just for points) with little or no effect will not win the fight.

Round length. guys getting over tired and slugging it out with wild haymakers are not fun to watch, so keep round length down to 2 min at most. Probably 2min X3 is best.

Probably want to limit clinch time, again its good for spectators.