An overwhelming number of the masters, like Ku Ru Zhang, Huo Yuan Jia, Wang Tze Ping and Wong Fei Hoong, who convincingly defeated foreign masters such as from Japan, Russia and Europe coming to China to test her martial art, were trained in Shaolin Kungfu.
Does anyone know of any historical evidence which could either confirm or deny this statement? I know that Wong Fei Hung is a very famous person who has attained folk-hero status, but is there any actual documentation or evidence that he defeated any foreign challengers?
I think western boxing would work fine when up against some of the traditional chinese fighting sytems. Wong Sheung Leung once said said:
“It isn’t a question of style but of the person, however, if i had to say which fighters were the most challenging opponents, it would have to be western boxers. This is so because from the moment they commence training they are sparring. They dont concern themselves with “chasing their opponent’s hands”, they just attack. When you fight with a boxer, there is a greater chance of getting hit because both hands are used for attack, whereas many Gung-fu systems/fighters only attack with one hand, using the other hand almost exclusively for defence.”
Wong came to Wing Chun from a western boxing backround.
I disagreee with his statement that “many gung fu systems/fighters attack with one hand” because I don’t know any that attack with one hand and defend with the other exclusively.
I am aware of a few confrontations where the Chinese master owned the foreigner, but I can’t remember all the details, so I will not provide the information.
Alot of Wong’s fights were apparently well documented, im really tired so i appologise for not going into further detail.
This is an excerpt from David Petersons article “Wong Sheung Leung: the legend behind the legend”
These were not tournament fights as conducted in the West, with rules, protective equipment or time limits. Instead, they were full-on fights between representatives of the various schools of combat in Hong Kong, and Sifu Wong is said to have “let his hands do the talking” by winning the majority of these “contests” within just three punches! In one such match, arranged by a reporter working for a prominent Hong Kong newspaper of the day, Wong (who stood barely 5ft 6in tall and weighed in at around 120lbs) easily defeated a visiting Russian boxer named Giko, a giant of a man who weighed over 250lbs and stood some twelve inches taller than the dynamic Wing Chun exponent.
I don’t know of who you are speaking of in particular. I saw a documentary on Shaolin Kung Fu on the discovery channel. It showed their training and all…but when they sparred…they did kickboxing…or San Shou. Pretty much the samething.
I only know of one specific story and I have a copy of the newspaper article for that one along with a grainy photo of the medal awarded for the tournament. The fighter was Han Mu Xia and it was reported in the Chinese press Sept 29, 1918. The fight took place at the “liu guo jiu dian” (6 Nations Hotel)
Ronin’s comment is more accurate here. The question in this particular case for example is not, “Did it happen?” But rather, “Just what sort of ‘champion’ was this Russian wrestler?” There are no records of his actual Russian name, just the Chinese translation of the name, “Kang Tai Er” or in some cases, “Dodelov”. He reportedly signed the guestbook at Han Mu Xia’s school after his defeat. After work I can go look up where the school was located. Again, though, most likely not verifiable (the signature) because you would have to hope that a certain gong fu acadamy set up prior to the Japanese invasion, communist takeover and cultural revolution was actually still in existence.
The venue i read is “liu guo da fan dian”,though it just meant the same thing~~~
Ronin’s comment is more accurate here. The question in this particular case for example is not, “Did it happen?” But rather, “Just what sort of ‘champion’ was this Russian wrestler?”
Champion of vodka binge?
There are no records of his actual Russian name, just the Chinese translation of the name, “Kang Tai Er” or in some cases, “Dodelov”.
Happens almost all the time when some Chinese CMA boxer beat some Japanese or Western boxers/wrestlers/jujutsuka/karataka/judoka etc.
He reportedly signed the guestbook at Han Mu Xia’s school after his defeat. After work I can go look up where the school was located. Again, though, most likely not verifiable (the signature) because you would have to hope that a certain gong fu acadamy set up prior to the Japanese invasion, communist takeover and cultural revolution was actually still in existence.
My mistake. I was going from memory. I just checked my article and it actually says, “Liu Guo Fan Dian”. (no ‘da’)
Angry_Historian,
Have any of those people on your list ever beaten any famous Chinese fighters like:
Guo Yun Shen (Xing Yi)
Chang Dong Shen (Shuai Jiao)
Li Shu Wen (Baji)
Dong Hai Chuan, Yin fu etc. (Bagua)
I could go on.
It’s a silly point. China was so backward and isolated at the time they weren’t out there challenging anybody. Even the circumstances of the famous fight with the Russian strongman were political. The Russians at the time had set up the contest to humiliate the local Chinese. Many accounts I have heard suggest that he was not only not “THE Champion” but that the fights weren’t even legit. In other words, works. Not fixed but basically one real legitimate musclebound Russian wrestler picking up and throwing around random Chinese guys like rag dolls. Han Mu Xia got wind of this and set out to “fix” this mess. Han Mu Xia was a real fighter and not some tiny little guy either. I’ve got a photo I might post if I can find the time to upload it.
These staged contests are not just ficticious things from the movies. In the early 20th century, China was being divied up by . …er . . .8 nations I think. I’ll look it up if anyone really cares. Part of this colonial period involved setting up various public events to break Chinese moral, mostly by the Japanese and the Russians. The British, German, Dutch and others relied more on Naval might to control the ports and apparently couldn’t be bothered with this stuff, more interested in trade rights I guess.
Li Shuwen killed various Japanese in armed matches. Huo Dian Ge had to defeat an Japanese challenger to get his job as personal bodyguard and gong fu instructor to emperor Pu Yi. The Japanese at the time wanted to assign one of their own men to “protect” the emperor.
My general point is that China was not developed enough or even stable enough to be farming out MA talent on the competitive circuit. Any real talent around was being used to instruct troops or protect government figures. The Chinese actually fought battles with fucking broadswords right up untill WWII. Not that they didn’t have guns but bullets were limited and eventually things often went to H2H.
Top Chinese fighters did not fight top European or Japanese ones.
The same goes for the more grappling-oriented circuit–i.e., Maeda never wrestled Gotch, etc.
It’s a silly point.
What’s really “silly” is the claims on Wong Kiew Kit’s site about Shaolin kung-fu being the “greatest” martial art.
My general point is that China was not developed enough or even stable enough to be farming out MA talent on the competitive circuit. Any real talent around was being used to instruct troops or protect government figures. The Chinese actually fought battles with fucking broadswords right up untill WWII. Not that they didn’t have guns but bullets were limited and eventually things often went to H2H.
And they were not unique in that regard (i.e., using swords in WWII).
Japanese officers trained in kenjutsu and kendo, and actually used their swords too.
And the Filipinos (both local guerrillas and Filipino-Americans in the US Army) made a liberal use of the bolo. Read the late GM Leo Giron’s Memory Rides the Ebb of Tide, and you’ll see swords O’ plenty.
You’ve got some good points Angry, but we all know top Chinese fighters would of pwned top Japanese fighters in h2h combat, challenge matches, pissing contests etc…
