Cultural differences and "secrets"

Sweet baby jebus - I wish I hadn’t Googled that.

I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding of what a fascia is in some of those discussions.

Guessing most of those people have never seen a cadaver.

the only difference between western MA and eastern in terms of internal power and qi is semantics. It’s all just physics. Some MAists deluded themselves into thinking they could knock down/out others with their mind, mostly in eastern MA (especially westerners doing eastern MA it seems), but it really isn’t unique to eastern MA (systema anyone?). That bullshit just pops up anywhere you do too much compliant drilling.

[QUOTE=Guird;2846878] but it really isn’t unique to eastern MA (systema anyone?).[/QUOTE]

There are people who would consider Russia a little easty.

[QUOTE=Guird;2846878]the only difference between western MA and eastern in terms of internal power and qi is semantics. It’s all just physics. [/QUOTE]

That’s partly true, but partly not true. Yes, it’s all physics (and physiology, kinematics, mechanics, etc.), but no, the difference isn’t only semantics.

The truth is somewhere in the middle - obviously there are no “qi balls”, or at least, the kind of qi ball you can feel (the “magnetic” feeling you get when you do Qigong) doesn’t have any martial application, so far as we can tell). That side of things is certainly bullshit.

But there is something in the Asian MA that isn’t in the Western MA. There are some things we didn’t already know about, that are interesting. This stuff maybe was in the Western MA a long, long time ago, but if it was, it’s been lost. (There was a discussion I saw recently regarding one of the mediaeval manuals, as to whether one of the things being depicted was something like the “back bow” found in some Asian MA. There are also occasional hints regarding special kinds of “prayer” that might - or might not - be suggestive.)

And as near as we can tell, it’s got something to do with the fascia (of all kinds - basically all the collagenous material that ties the body together and interpenetrates it, both deep and superficial) on the one hand, and something to do with re-training or bringing under conscious control, the body’s innate ability to balance loads, on the other. And there are unusual skills and body changes that can be attained by specific kinds of training, involving slow movement, visualization, breathing exercises, pressure manipulation, beating, even such weird stuff as hanging weights from the balls, etc.

Somebody above was talking about fascia and anatomy. Here’s an interesting dissection of the superficial fascia:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyltvc1lMTo

“Golden Bell Cover” maybe takes on a quite specific meaning when you see something like that :slight_smile:

It’s too early to be definite about any of it, but it’s gradually becoming clear that there’s a whole area here that’s been known in Asia in a practical sense for ages, but only now coming to the light of scientific scrutiny.

Although, even that’s probably not quite fair: for example, the 8 muscle-tendon “meridians” were something known about in China. Dissection was taboo for times we know about (except for one occasion, which is the occasion that has the literary source for those 8 “meridians”), and there’s a lot we just can’t trace in the history (because of the several upheavals, book burnings, losses, etc.) but the evidence in terms of practical know-how seems to show there was some quite detailed knowledge of anatomy at some times in China’s history, and most probably in India before that.

Thomas Myers is one of the people at the cutting edge of fascia investigation today (although from the point of view of deep massage therapy) that’s in the same ballpark as the muscle-tendon meridians. Here’s some examples of dissection re. that:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyU7SsQmVRE&list=PL445347FB25CCB94D&index=4

Again, what this hints at is that there’s a different way of “parsing” anatomy from what we’re used to. Rather than thinking of the “musculo-skeletal” system, what you’re looking at is more like a “myofascial-skeletal” system forming a tensegrity structure.

Now of course that’s all operative in normal movement, and in athletic movement. But what the Asian “secrets” seem to be about is specific ways of training the body that involve different combinations of muscle-firing than we’re used to, and a more integrated use of the “lay” of the fascia in the body, taking advantage of lines of tension that are already inbuilt, and re-building patterns of muscle-firing around them.

Summat like that anyway. It’s too early to say for sure. Annoyingly, already you can see some people getting a bit previous about it, and thinking it’s more cut and dried than it really is, thinking that it’s a “magic bullet” (“forms” all over again), and even charging money for what is all pretty much speculative at the moment, and should be just free airing of ideas and mutual criticism. The value of the anatomy stuff is simply that given that there are these recondite and quite ancient kinds of training, some sense of this undiscovered country re. how the body works, can give the inquiring mind at least a plausibility scenario for scientifically demonstrable things that could form the basis for the abilities depicted in legend and myth (granted they’re exaggerated) and for odd abilities that some people here and there can actually demonstrate even today. Things that we didn’t already know, and that we weren’t already doing.

[QUOTE=Azatdawn;2846880]There are people who would consider Russia a little easty.[/QUOTE]
true, but the point is that systema has no connection to the japanese and chinese arts that often result in no-touch believiers.

[QUOTE=Guird;2846878]the only difference between western MA and eastern in terms of internal power and qi is semantics. It’s all just physics. Some MAists deluded themselves into thinking they could knock down/out others with their mind, mostly in eastern MA (especially westerners doing eastern MA it seems), but it really isn’t unique to eastern MA (systema anyone?). That bullshit just pops up anywhere you do too much compliant drilling.[/QUOTE]

See I don’t even think it’s even that closely tied to martial arts. Mind-over-matter claims and alleged powers have existed inside MA for a long time but they go far deeper than that. In some ways the MA version is like a mix of religion, circus, and snake oil salesman theatrics. The “religion” part is stolen from ancient Chinese philosophies, the circus part is the display of “skill” that is more or less poor illusion, and the snake oil being sold is training that supposedly unlocks these dormant “gifts”.

Anyone who has a chance to research the history of cults (religious or otherwise) knows that the programming that occurs is very similar to the kind of claims made by “ki masters” etc. The goal is not so much to make the whole world believe you have psychokinetic powers, but to convince that core of people who surround you who show up, ready and willing to believe.

The parallel again with faith healers like Benny Hinn shows that even if you took MA completely out of the picture, there are still possibly millions of people who will fall over across a room if they believe you just shot the Holy Spirit into them. Hinn does it in vast cathedrals full of people, knocking them over by the hundreds occasionally.

When George Dillman does it, he just attempts to replace the faith aspect with claims of mystical qi psychokinesis…which is pretty much also a strongly faith-based and cult programming phenomenon. All the malapropos cultural attache has done is basically create legions of “qi believers” who aren’t capable of discussing the (simple) topic rationally.

[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2846856]Nope not even a few. Two: Ju and do.

Two little words mean a LOT to people who train. And even those two words are optional, imho.

Seriously I’ll bet someone could teach judo without ever speaking at all, if they really needed to.

“Internal power” hits all by itself.[/QUOTE]

I’ve been doing Judo a long time, relatively speaking. I’m also somewhat intellectually inclined, not super-smart, but I am in the Myers-Briggs spectrum an INTP.

So I’ve spent a lot of time reading about Judo, thinking about Judo, stuff like that. As I transitioned more to refereeing (not now, done with that) and teaching/coaching, of course, I read more and more related to teaching/coaching.

I found over the years that intellectual pursuit of judo stuff wasn’t that popular or widespread. Judo is pretty down to earth and practical, at least nowadays, concerned with performance in competition/randori.

As far as teaching judo without talking, pretty much the less talking the better. If you have a good teacher (who understands more or less how Judo works, and has decent teaching/coaching skills), you are correct, a lot of talking isn’t necessary, in fact, the less the better, as that leaves more time to train physically.

It seems to me that the CMA internal power stuff has a purpose (specialized skill training for kinesthetic awareness and centered, coordinated movement and transfer to external power (punching, kicking, grappling), but has become the focus of some arts (Tai Chi?) exclusively, which makes them unbalanced in terms of practicality.

Aikido would be an example in JMA, however, Ueshiba explicitly designed Aikido as a budo, for the purposes of self improvement/self realization/world peace and harmony…a way to realize the perfect spherical symmetry of the universe internally then express it externally…not as a practical method of fighting, be it self defense, combat sport, etc…

Of course, the training methods of Judo are kata, randori, lecture, and question-answer, as Kano Sensei developed a method of education, not just how to kick ass. You can add shiai in there as well as far as I’m concerned.

The idea of “internal power” in Judo doesn’t ever really come up. I’m not aware of Kano Sensei ever really writing about “ki” as relates to Judo. We’ve had some discussions over on Judo Forum about it, mostly in the older now defunct one, and people who claim to read Japanese seemed to think that Kano Sensei wanted to de-mystify martial arts in general and Judo in particular, and take a rational, scientific for the time and his understanding approach.

The whole “softness overcomes hardness” ( jū yoku gō o seisu, 柔よく剛を制す, meaning “Softness subdues Hardness” meaning that flexibility overcomes rigidity…interpretation varies), which can be extended to never attacking, only defending/reacting (aikido, for example), is replaced in Kodokan Judo with seiryoku zen’yō, 精力善用 as the overarching principle of Judo (physically in the sense I’m writing), and has a moral component “for good or to do good”.

If you train judo “correctly”, then there isn’t much if any need to be distracted by focus on internal power/ki/qi/ or chi balls knocking down your training partner. This isn’t to say that purposely training to be centered and move from center isn’t important is a bad thing, just that it’s really a minor component. I will be developed naturally in any sort of correct physical training that is done seriously (speaking of Judo here).

Because if you don’t, you are going to suck balls at Judo or any other MA that involves real struggle and contact with a training partner. Centered movement is a consequence of that kind of training.

[QUOTE=MikeD81;2846876]Sweet baby jebus - I wish I hadn’t Googled that.

I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding of what a fascia is in some of those discussions.

Guessing most of those people have never seen a cadaver.[/QUOTE]

yeah, I got a chuckle out of “training fascia”.

I train mine with massage and a foam roller.

[QUOTE=BKR;2846921]yeah, I got a chuckle out of “training fascia”.

I train mine with massage and a foam roller.[/QUOTE]

“Diffuse noxious inhibitory control”; it’s the nervous system most likely.
http://www.bettermovement.org/2013/how-does-foam-rolling-work/

[QUOTE=ChenPengFi;2846923]“Diffuse noxious inhibitory control”; it’s the nervous system most likely.
http://www.bettermovement.org/2013/how-does-foam-rolling-work/[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure why or what exactly the foam roller does for me, but it helps to “loosen up” my stiff body. I’ve gotten pain relief from using it as well. Not a miracle cure by any means, but useful to me at times.

Some of the movements are dynamic stretching-like as well, but with a limited range of motion. Working with the roller also causes my core temperature to go up a bit, depending on how hard I go at it.

That’s a great article I linked, it covers the hows and whys and refutes the common tropes eg fascia etc.
Connective tissue has similar tensile strength to stainless steel, a foam roller or a hand/elbow isn’t going to do much.
The nervous system can react to inputs on the other hand.

I’ve never really trained with folks who insist that internal energy is something different than good body mechanics, and I’ve done a few years of tai chi and trained eskrima with an aikido teacher.

One of the problems I’ve seen with internal power is that its based on using the whole body in a relaxed way to deliver power, as opposed to using isolated muscles and hulking out. By itself, this is a good thing, but if you don’t train against resisting opponents, you’re not going to be super relaxed in a fight. If you don’t get punched regularly in sparring, a punch is gonna wreck your perfectly centered mind and mess up your impeccable body mechanics. So, the internal demos I’ve seen before left me feeling like they probably couldn’t deliver their internal power in a fight because they don’t fight, and those who do fight tend to use a more intuitive version of relaxed power when hitting the bags, sparring etc, even though they don’t stand in qigong poses to cultivate fighting power. In fact, I’d almost expect a BJJ, judo or muay thai fighter to be more relaxed than a tai chi or aikido guy in a fight, since the competitive fighter has fought enough times that a fight is more like another day in training, while the tai chi or aikido guy is trying to relax in a new situation where they can be hurt and aren’t used to being hurt.

I’m no internal-arts master or anything, but it looks like most internal-power-based-arts only use half of the equation- they learn to use relaxed power when delivering strikes etc, but don’t learn how to exploit an opponent’s unnecessary tension. JMAs seem better at approaching this than CMAs.

I’ll also add that I believe switching from doing tai chi to doing solo Indian clubs practice has actually improved my internal power (with the exception of playing push hands). There’s definitely something about club swinging that builds relaxed power and a natural preference and ease towards circles, figure 8s and loops using the arms (while coordinating with the lower body). Like internal martial arts, you can get quite a bit out of it if you shut up and do work, rather than getting together to talk about what might be happening inside the body.

A few times, when martial artists have come over to my place, they’ve asked me about the wooden clubs I keep in my living room. Although its an art I don’t teach, I could ramble on about the practice quite a bit, but if they want to see and feel the art, I get my 2nd pair, put it in their hands, and say “do what I do” as I face towards them and they mirror me. A few years ago, I’d see this as the “monkey see, monkey do” approach that I thought cranks out martial artists who can imitate but not perform freestyle, and who understand the “how” but don’t understand the “why” of what they’re doing. A few years later, I realize that actually doing physical work is much more beneficial to a martial artist than just talking theory, and progressive drills only progress properly when the body is coordinated enough, not when the brain can grasp how to do it intellectually.

In a way, shutting up to do work is the real internal kung fu, because instead of watching from the outside while thinking about kung fu, you’re putting your body through its paces and feeling it out from the inside. Yet many internal stylists would see this as being some kind of meathead who doesn’t really get it. They think its all about listening to a master explain stuff.

This is Kano’s essay on the different phases of “Jiu do” for those who have not read it.

http://www.belmontjudo.com/JigoroKanoEssay.pdf

He calls out Intellectual, Emotional, Moral phases.

Some very interesting “internal”-ish concepts in here in plain, Kano-esque language.

How about this though, I came across a word in here I hadn’t seen ever before: Yawara, the “gentle management”.

Here’s about as technical a description of “the gentle way” I’ve ever found, from the mouth of the master.

[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2846937]How about this though, I came across a word in here I hadn’t seen ever before: Yawara, the “gentle management”. [/QUOTE]

I hear Yawara is an apocryphal term for jujutsu, as well as a little stick like a kubaton.

[QUOTE=ChenPengFi;2846925]That’s a great article I linked, it covers the hows and whys and refutes the common tropes eg fascia etc.
Connective tissue has similar tensile strength to stainless steel, a foam roller or a hand/elbow isn’t going to do much.
The nervous system can react to inputs on the other hand.[/QUOTE]

I read the article, thanks for posting it. I don’t need to invoke ki to like how it feels (sometimes).

Maybe I’ll just dip my hand in cold water next time…

[QUOTE=ChenPengFi;2846925]That’s a great article I linked, it covers the hows and whys and refutes the common tropes eg fascia etc.
Connective tissue has similar tensile strength to stainless steel, a foam roller or a hand/elbow isn’t going to do much.
The nervous system can react to inputs on the other hand.[/QUOTE]

Have to admit I am a little skeptical of what a Feldenkrais exponent is writing. Some of the constructs they use to explain things can be a little misleading. There’s actually a study on foam rollers about to commence at the University nearby. If there are places still going I’ll look to get in on it.

[QUOTE=Permalost;2846940]I hear Yawara is an apocryphal term for jujutsu, as well as a little stick like a kubaton.[/QUOTE]

Yawara = ju (柔) same kanji different pronunciation…nothing apochryphal, kun vs on reading I think.

or,

[QUOTE=W. Rabbit;2846937]This is Kano’s essay on the different phases of “Jiu do” for those who have not read it.

http://www.belmontjudo.com/JigoroKanoEssay.pdf

He calls out Intellectual, Emotional, Moral phases.

Some very interesting “internal”-ish concepts in here in plain, Kano-esque language.

How about this though, I came across a word in here I hadn’t seen ever before: Yawara, the “gentle management”.

Here’s about as technical a description of “the gentle way” I’ve ever found, from the mouth of the master.

[/QUOTE]

Second paste of yours, Standard stuff, it’s Judo for Dummies…seiryoku zen’yō (精力善用 covers a lot more ground, combatively and in life in general.

1st one I’ve never seen, but I would imagine it’s a very oversimplified version of aesthetics in general and Japanese aesthetics in particular. Which gets fairly complex.

[QUOTE=Permalost;2846934]…In a way, shutting up to do work is the real internal kung fu, because instead of watching from the outside while thinking about kung fu, you’re putting your body through its paces and feeling it out from the inside. Yet many internal stylists would see this as being some kind of meathead who doesn’t really get it. They think its all about listening to a master explain stuff.[/QUOTE]

This mirrors some of my experience these past couple years doing internal stuff. The growing internet conversation about it made me keen to learn about it, and ultimately turned me towards it, but had the unfortunate consequence of giving me too much to think about; and that’s not a good thing when you’re the daydreaming type.

[QUOTE=BKR;2846943]Yawara = ju (柔) same kanji different pronunciation…nothing apochryphal, kun vs on reading I think. [/QUOTE]

The other one is “和,” as in harmony, or being of Japan. Shosho Ryu is one example of it; they occasionally also call it “yawarajutsu.” But even at that, they call their idori techniques “kogusoku” (小具足) and another section “kumiuchi” (組討); whereas another ryu, say the Araki Ryu descending from Araki Buzaemon, calls itself “Gun’yo Kogusoku”, and yet has a section on “yawara.”

Generally speaking, the terms conform to certain eras, technical parameters, and so on, but at least when you’re talking about MA schools it’s really case by case.