'Classical Osotogari doesn't work'

Martial Arts Training Forums BJJ and Advanced Grappling Forum
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It’s an old article, but I haven’t found it on bullshido when I searched, and I was curious what people think.

http://www.bestjudo.com/article/0822/classical-osotogari-doesnt-work

Some problems are pointed out in the rebuttal:

http://www.bestjudo.com/article/0823/classical-osotogari-does-work-rebuttal-steve-cunningham

and a followup

http://www.bestjudo.com/blog/18226/khadaji/osoto-gari-what-we-teach-doesnt-work

So my thoughts first, since I’m asking for yours. Skip if you dgaf. fuck, I’m writing this part for nothing aren’t I?
TL;DR his argument for why classical osoto is inefficient doesn’t exactly make sense to me, but the observation that classical osoto doesn’t show up in competition remains important (if it is as universal as he says)

I don’t know what he means here, aren’t both feet equally weighted in the ‘natural’ posture?

and here, he seems to assume that the left leg is the driving leg in classical osoto as in the competitive variation he describes:

While until you lift your it to reap, the right leg is in prime driving position. However, you do need to lift that leg sooner or later I guess, at which point you’d have to derive any such drive from the left leg.

the rest kind of follows from there. While these to points seem to be rather sloppy, what I do get from it is that the great disadvantage of classical osoto is that you have to completely break your opponent’s balance before raising your leg, while in the competitive variation you can continue to drive and break his balance after hooking behind the leg.

I’ve never really had any success

The explanation given in the rebuttal, that time limits and passivity penalties are the reason behind the lack of success for classical osoto is consistent with the idea that you need to create a perfect opportunity before attacking with the throw. This is also somwhat consistent with differences I’ve noticed in the approaches of judo guys versus wrestlers from other styles, with chain-wrestling being relatively discouraged in judo in favor of setting up a throw with kuzushi attempts.

Thoughts?

Do you consider Osotogari as classically taught competitively viable?
If not, do you use the variation he describes? do you use a different variation (I notice he doesn’t mention the ken-ken that some posters here prefer)?

If so, do you agree with the rebuttal’s explanation for why it isn’t seen much, or do you have another?

I’d be curious to see how osoto is taught in wrestling, but the only thing my searches turned up using ‘outside reap’ ‘outside trip’ ‘outside sweep’ were either judo or kosoto.

As for me, I’ve had very little success with Osoto, possibly because none of my teachers favored it enough to go into any detail, and I’ve only ever drilled the classical version. I’ve been on the recieving end of the competitive variation described (though I didn’t know it was a thing at the time so I was surprised very surprised to be bested by such ‘poor’ technique.

It’s a little late, so sorry if this post is rambly.

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Osoto is one of my stronger throws. I haven’t gone back to the classical version of this since 1990 when I came around my own approach and then had it reinterpreted for me in 2002. This was very important for me since I switched to no gi for NHB back in 1992.

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[QUOTE=Omega Supreme;2982591]Osoto is one of my stronger throws. I haven’t gone back to the classical version of this since 1990 when I came around my own approach and then had it reinterpreted for me in 2002. This was very important for me since I switched to no gi for NHB back in 1992.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for replying.

Is your approach similar to the one khadaj describes? If not, does a video of it exist? I’d love to see it, or for you to elaborate if you’d care to. No rush, I need to get to sleep anyway.

Do you think classical osoto is still worth spending significant amounts of time drilling, as khadaj does despite his position on its efficacy?

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[QUOTE=Guird;2982594]Thanks for replying.

Is your approach similar to the one khadaj describes? If not, does a video of it exist? I’d love to see it, or for you to elaborate if you’d care to. No rush, I need to get to sleep anyway.

Do you think classical osoto is still worth spending significant amounts of time drilling, as khadaj does despite his position on its efficacy?[/QUOTE]

I think classical is worth spending time on because it gives you a basic approach to the throw that is easier to understand. Now whether the way I do is like the way he describes, the truth is I do not know. I’m a visual learner. I’m going to have to grab somebody and try to do the throw. I believe my way is a bit different as I’ve been accused of actually doing harai goshi instead of osotgari. The kazushi I use isn’t a simple step either it’s a swinging gate.

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Well… DAMN someone had to go and start a martial arts thread…

As far as this article is concerned, I am more in agreement with the response than the original article.

The only real difference between the “Classical” form and what I typically use in randori is the fact that in randori you are moving in a circle and attacking at an angle. But the idea should still be to off balance before throwing.

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I’m not sure the classical form as is described

Begin in the right natural posture.

Make your opponent step forward with his right foot by pulling him gently to his right front corner. Put your left foot outside his right foot to break his balance to this right back corner by pulling him toward you with your left hand and pushing him backward with your right.

Lightly raise your right leg and swing it past your opponent’s right leg. Clip his thigh hard from behind with your thigh. At the same time, pull down hard with your left hand and push toward his right back corner with your right hand.

Your Opponent’s legs will fly up and he will fall directly backward.

is really classical.

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[QUOTE=DCS;2982607]I’m not sure the classical form as is described

Begin in the right natural posture.

Make your opponent step forward with his right foot by pulling him gently to his right front corner. Put your left foot outside his right foot to break his balance to this right back corner by pulling him toward you with your left hand and pushing him backward with your right.

Lightly raise your right leg and swing it past your opponent’s right leg. Clip his thigh hard from behind with your thigh. At the same time, pull down hard with your left hand and push toward his right back corner with your right hand.

Your Opponent’s legs will fly up and he will fall directly backward.

is really classical.[/QUOTE]

Hmm. I am not sure what you are saying here.

This form of O-soto is pretty commonly taught to beginners as the classical form.

There are a couple of differences though when making it work in randori.

  1. Making your opponent step anywhere is easier to accomplish if you give him a reason to step there rather than pull him there.

  2. Don’t ‘put’ your foot outside his. DRIVE it there using your other leg. Create momentum towards Ukes rear corner.

  3. Don’t ‘lightly’ raise your right leg. REAP his support leg out from under him. The throw works by loading his support leg and then removing it, not by gently tapping a leg that doesn’t have weight on it. Nor are you “levering” Uke over a planted leg. Your reaping leg should be like a scythe cutting his support leg out from under him.

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[QUOTE=AcerTempest;2982609]Hmm. I am not sure what you are saying here.

This form of O-soto is pretty commonly taught to beginners as the classical form.[/QUOTE]

I’d like to see it as described in some Kodokan approved document.

Anyway, which technique works in its “textbook” form against a skilled fighting back opponent without requiring some kind of adaptation or adjustment?

Edit:

//youtu.be/RTPxyhdy4qs

This is one of the most official Kodokan Judo instructionals. Osoto gari series begins at 1:01:13 and even the first one demonstrated does not really match with the description i quoted.

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[QUOTE=AcerTempest;2982609]Hmm. I am not sure what you are saying here.

This form of O-soto is pretty commonly taught to beginners as the classical form.

There are a couple of differences though when making it work in randori.

  1. Making your opponent step anywhere is easier to accomplish if you give him a reason to step there rather than pull him there.

  2. Don’t ‘put’ your foot outside his. DRIVE it there using your other leg. Create momentum towards Ukes rear corner.

  3. Don’t ‘lightly’ raise your right leg. REAP his support leg out from under him. The throw works by loading his support leg and then removing it, not by gently tapping a leg that doesn’t have weight on it. Nor are you “levering” Uke over a planted leg. Your reaping leg should be like a scythe cutting his support leg out from under him.[/QUOTE]
    This is correct imo and the second example of the throw in the kodokan example DCS posted the video for.

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Osoto Gari, Classical vs Competition Versions and other strawmen

The whole issue of “classical” versus “competition” versions of Osoto Gari is an old, old strawman from pre-internet days that bled over into the early Internet, and has now been resurrected here at good old bs.net.

I had to chuckle at you posting up the old "bestjudo.whatever posts by Ben what’s his name.

He was arguing that same stuff back in the days of rec.martialarts. He basically cribbed it from Gerald Lafon, if I recall correctly.

And guess what, I was involved in many of those discussions, LOL, what a blast from the past.

So judo throws are supposed to represent principles of throwing, at least according to according to Jigoro Kano understanding of biomechanics, mixed in with whatever he had learned from studying and training primarily in Kito Ryu Jujutsu.

Osoto Gari demonstrates a particular application of the “gari” principle, derived from whatever Japanese verb that means to cut, with implications of using a scythe to cut grain. Simply put, you load uke up on one or both legs (get his weight on them, most of his weight, or enough to where he can’t move) and use one of your legs to cut or scythe his leg(s) out from under him, to the rear or side usually. Other details are involved, but that’s it in a nutshell.

So, Osoto Gari is Osoto Gari. What varies are what in Judo are called “entry methods”, or hairi kata. You could also maybe call them “setups” and not be exactly right or wrong.

There are quite a few entry methods, and the Kodokan tape posted shows some varying from the usual compliant type to Y. Yamashita throwing resisting MFs on their heads.

The bestjudo guy (what a joke, he was pretty much a nobody in the world of American Judo AFAIK) was on the the old classical judo sucks, no good for competition, why bother, uchikomi are useless, blah blah blah bandwagon. Gleason roller, driver, driving leg, etc.

So why practice “normal” Osoto Gari ? Well, I think Omega pointed out that the basics of the throw apply, and that the classical version is a simpl(er) way to practice the principles of the throw.

Absolutely correct, IMO and IME. You see, Osoto Gari is about how you finish the throw, and how it works, not how you get into it. True for the other throws of Judo as well. Now, that may be a distinctly Japanese way of looking at things, but we ARE talking about Kodokan Judo. Which is Japanese…

The essentials of the throw are emphasized in the classical versions of the throw, so if you can do the classical version(s) well, then whatever other entry you use, will be that much better when it counts, when you are in position to throw that MF on his head.

I’ve been teaching Judo a long time. I started out teaching how my teacher taught me. Which was OK, but not after I started going to coach training course, and learned more Judo, and read Gleeson, Lafon (and had real, in person conversations with him as well as internet discussions), and all sort of other pre-internet resources, then Internet resources, I came to see the wisdom and practicality of teaching (and learning) to do stuff that on the surface appeared to have no application to competition.

You see, in order to be good at Judo, and do well in competition, from a technical point of view you have to be good at doing Judo. Not contest specific grip strategies, or contest specific (and tailored to the individual) versions (read that as entries/setups, which vary by person and even by opponent) of normal Judo throws.

So work on that “classical” Osoto Gari. Work it static, feel how you have to position yourself, how you have to control uke head/upper body (but especially the head), how to get uke on his heel and keep him there. See how that varies with how tall uke is, how fat, how broad, etc. Work it simple one or two step moving series, then the standard uke moving away moving uchikomi…feel the rhythm, how the weight shifts. Master it, and once you have got the feeling and shape right, then the entries are icing on the cake.

Move from the general to the specific. The other way is not only not as efficient in the long run, it’s fucking boring, myopic way to train. Specific entries are going to be tailored to the individual on different levels.

So, get the straw-man, or maybe it’s a false dichotomy fallacy now ?

I’ve got real life Judo students who use Osoto Gari in competition. They have their own peculiar way of doing Osoto Gari versus resisting, skilled opponents.

But they damned sure can do the basic version of Osoto Gari practically in their sleep, moving in different directions as well as statically.

One of them has thrown opponent so hard they either had the breath knocked out of them, or in one case, got knocked out cold.

So, Osoto Gari is Osoto Gari…

edit

I forgot to add the modern bio-mechanical explanation of Osoto Gari. Must be the Knob Creek.

Osoto Gari is biomechanically a “force-couple” type throw. Uke is rotated around her center of gravity by applying two forces acting in opposite directions simultaneously (in ideal case). Usually it’s force is applied to the upper body by the upper body of tori, and the lower body of uke by the leg/foot of tori.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/7993213/Judo-Bio-Mechanics

Oh, and yeah, Classical Osoto Gari works, you betcha…because that is all there is.

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[QUOTE=BKR;2982655]

Oh, and yeah, Classical Osoto Gari works, you betcha…because that is all there is.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the input! You’re exactly the person I hoped would reply. There are a lot of other throws for which the classical entry is basically never seen (Ogoshi comes to mind), but the mechanics are identical, and they certainly aren’t a waste of time.

I had another look at a few competition examples, and even when they drive with the left leg, they mostly hop around to the side of their opponent for the finish, so in that sense the throw finishes the same after an angled entry. Though I don’t see them reaping the leg out from under their opponent, rather hooking around it and driving past it, with no reap really occurring until after they start to fall, and their weight comes off their leg.

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[QUOTE=Guird;2982659]Thanks for the input! You’re exactly the person I hoped would reply. There are a lot of other throws for which the classical entry is basically never seen (Ogoshi comes to mind), but the mechanics are identical, and they certainly aren’t a waste of time.

I had another look at a few competition examples, and even when they drive with the left leg, they mostly hop around to the side of their opponent for the finish, so in that sense the throw finishes the same after an angled entry. Though I don’t see them reaping the leg out from under their opponent, rather hooking around it and driving past it, with no reap really occurring until after they start to fall, and their weight comes off their leg.[/QUOTE]

You have to pin uke weight on his leg, which is tough to do versus a resisting opponent. Relative stance is important as well, for example, in opposite stance situation uke leg is very far away.

Basically, they pin the weight, hop into correct position, all the while with pressure on uke leg (back pressure and weight), and when get to proper position, the back pressure can be put on enough to overcome the friction of uke foot on the floor. So the reap is in place for most of it, but does not take effect right away.