I was wondering if anyone here knows about the history of sanda. I’m more interested in the style lineage of the techniques it uses than dates.
What specific kung fu styles does it use? What external styles have influenced it? In the areas of grapppling, kicking, and punching. Side kicks, roundhouses?
I’m guessing it is similar to the history of American Kickboxing. Taking the traditional style and applying it to ring fighting to create a new style.
Can’t say for sure. I believe it was developed shortly after the Communists took over in 1949. They got together a bunch of Wushu instructors and had them develope a fighting system for training the military. I can’t say for sure what systems SanDa is drawn from, I would imagine some things come from Shuai Qiao or Chin Na when it comes to throws, but the punching and kicking I have no information. I am by far not an expert on this subject.
It was developed because Kung Fu guys kept getting their asses kicked by Muay Thai fighters. Eventually, the Chinese got smart and decided to train Muay Thai. They added throws to try to disguise it, but still wear Muay Thai shorts and throw Thai style round kicks. Chinese fighting has greatly improved because of this, though.
The chinese realised how bad ass muay thai was and decided to copy it and call it sanda/sanshou
There, fixed that for you.
Sanda also used to be known for its weapon use, especially the nekode-like wristblades they use at higher levels. However, this was proven to be misleading, since there is no Sanda Claws.
Competitive sanda’s existed in one form or another since 1979 in China, since 1983 outside of China, and since 1989-1991 (sources vary) as an organized competitive sport. Sanda’s rules set is supposed to evoke older platform fighting (lei tai) competition and provide a competitive venue for military hand to hand skills.
http://www.wushu.org/eng/sanda.php
http://www.eagleclaw.gr/en/historyw.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_shou
Before sanda, there were lei tai matches. Sanda is not really directly descended from lei tai, and lei tai is the form supported by Taiwanese orgs.
http://mhkungfu.com/Events/Tournaments/Competitors/CACMA_Divisions/Lei_Tai_Rules/lei_tai_rules.html
I’m sure muay thai has a role in sanda’s development, but it’s not particularly open and shut. IIRC, the main exchange between kung fu and muay thai fighters happened with choi li fut fighters out of Hong Kong. Sanda used to allow elbows and knees, but doesn’t now. Some schools teach the Thai round kick; some teach a kick that’s a little more like the kyokushin round kick. Still, it’s not as if anybody’s going to avoid muay thai techniques.
Ken and Kid, where have you guys trained Sanda before? I’m inclined to disagree that Sanda is a copy of Muay Thai. I’m certainly no expert, but I’ve trained in Sanda before while in China and currently train Muay Thai.
Kid is just joking around.
Ken is suffering from short memory syndrome or he wouldn’t possibly be shitting on this thread after being so incredibly thoruoughly pwned on the topic the last time around.
Link:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17902&highlight=sanda
Another link minus the pwnage and flaming:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18430&highlight=sanda
Oh yeah,
To answer your question, neither of them have trained Sanda.
Sanda is the fighting aspect of wushu. At least that’s what I’ve been told. =\
Technically and linguistically speaking, correct.
Practicaly and historically speaking, almost completely wrong.
I’m not sure I buy the idea of an unbroken lineage going from Jingwu to PRC sanda. Omar, d’you have any references?
This is true to a certain extent.
In the USA now, san shou has been taken over by a kickboxing body where it used to be run by the national (I forget the name) WuShu body. This is greatly benefiting san shou in the US.
Sadly in the UK san shou is run (now almost exclusively) by a joke body called the British Council for Chinese Martial Arts (BCCMA) and before you fight, you have to prove that you come from a Chinese style! I will not go into detail about my hatred for the BCCMA and how crap and corrupt they are as I have done so at great length else where.
As for the history of san shou and what styles are used, and indeed if they are using thai boxing, well san shou is a format rather than a ‘style.’ As such anyone can take part.
It is not a direct evolution of Kung Fu as such. There was no, 'Well, we will take a bit of long fist for punching and the blocks from wing chun…some mongolian wrestling for throws and call it san shou."
Its just a case of if you use a high guard (because this is full contact) and punch a heavy bag and wear gloves you are fundamentally boxing and it will look like boxing. If you kick a heavy bag it will look less snappy and more thai, no matter where it originated from (I could point out that kung fu had round kicks while the Thai aborigines were still grubbing for worms but that would be a cheap shot).
This is San Shou as it stands today. Now to totally go back on what I said. I believe that when San Shou was first conceived, it was a military art. The military decided that Kung Fu didn’t work/took to long to learn and so put together the original san shou format. They (I vaguely recall reading) used Kung Fu teachers to do this so if you dig into the past you may find actual styles that went into the ‘fist’ san shou, but that has little to do with the san shou of today!
Omar makes senses. When my Baji instructor refers to actual sparring, even if we are talking about sparring with Baji, he still calls it Sanda.
So linquistically Shirak would be correct.
So is the style that Cung Le does called San Da or San Shou?
Endless.
There is nothing in the summary of the history I posted that is even vagueoy controversial. The same information is repeated in countless MA history books, the records are there in various almanacs if you were up to doing the footwork to dig it up. I have grainy old photo’s of the schools and various teachers. I have seen pics of newspaper anouncements of the contests. My teachers teacher was a vice-principle at the Nanjing school. The entire thing is WELL recorded. Unlike some “legends of old”, this thing was a govt. supported endeavor and had a national curriculum. There are few things in the entire MA world better documented than the history I put up there.
Feel free to cross check my info with someone like Coach Ross over at KFO or maybe John Wang at emptyflower or any other authority you can think of. It’s not really debateable.
There is a movie called Xanda about a wushu guy being trashed by a sanshou guy and eventually he changes over to sanshou, through alot of hard work. I think there is some history about sanshou inside. Anybody caught this movie before?
They both mean the same thing and are interchangeable.
People tend to use San Da when elbows and knees are used
Cung Le calls it SanShou, but it is basically the same thing. I have heard that the difference is in SanDa they allow knees. Could someone with a better understanding clarify this please?
What Liokault said.
On the mainland they call it Sanda because there is a big national organization which acts as the sanctioning body for PRC events and they call it “Sanda” so everyone else on the mainland now knows it as “Sanda”. Outside of China it just depends on peoples linguitic habits just like some people say “kung fu” others say “gongfu” and still others call the exact same thing “wushu” or even “kuoshu” or “guoshu”.
“Sanshou” and “Sanda” both are just Chinese words that mean “free fighting” but with the advent of a government sponsored competitive circuit it has evolved into its own martial art just like MMA did more recently except with less variety in fighting styles.
Oh and what Cung Lee does is not exactly the same as PRC Sanda. I don’t know what he’s doing currently but what he made his name on was leitai matches. That’s on a raised stage where you get extra points for pushing/knocking someone off the stage. More than any other kick, punch or throw. The PRC Sanda is in a ring just like a boxing ring, no knees, lots of throws, many of them high amplitude. Leg kicks are allowed but not heavily favored from what I have seen. The rules may have changed since last I saw. The different terms do not define different rulesets. Different organizations have different rulesets and they use whichever name they happen to prefer with no particular rhyme or reason to it.