Nice but how many students passed it?
I would assume all or at least most of them. That is the only thing not hard enough. You do this kind of testing when you are ready and already know that you will pass. You might have to do some challenging physical exercises but there is not real fear involved.
I don’t think there is a quick fix for that or anything, just an aspect to consider.
Anyway, cool video, great school. Totally envious.
To me, there’s only two things to be looking at: 1. can the candidate demonstrate the skills/concepts you expect at that level and 2. can the candidate execute those against another candidate of the same level.
Everything else is just fluff. Hours-long tests with strenuous conditioning aspects are just an ego boost for the candidate.
Probably closer to what real MA training and testing used to be and was meant to be – training that produces real fighters, not just income for the instructor. I particularly like the emphasis on physical conditioning. One question: what is Theoretical Defense Concepts and how was it tested?
I think it is really good. This is something that you will feel accomplishment for all of the years of training. And get you some bragging rights at the end. If you passed, you should be able to handle yourself in a majority of the ranges of a fight, if not all of them.
Anyone should be proud to obtain a blackbelt under this criteria.
A black belt test that doesn’t include a Long Island Aiki-jujutsu Kung Fu style “hunt” isn’t worth anything in my book.
[QUOTE=CapnMunchh;2806956]Probably closer to what real MA training and testing used to be and was meant to be – training that produces real fighters, not just income for the instructor. I particularly like the emphasis on physical conditioning. One question: what is Theoretical Defense Concepts and how was it tested?[/QUOTE]
Theoretical Defense Concepts are static preset self defenses which teaches certain approaches to a given self defense, as opposed to realistic self defenses which the attacker is told to initiate with the attack without the defender knowing and react appropriately. For example a push- in a Theoretical we will declare we want to see a specific throw done off the attack with a specific finish.
[QUOTE=NeilG;2806954]To me, there’s only two things to be looking at: 1. can the candidate demonstrate the skills/concepts you expect at that level and 2. can the candidate execute those against another candidate of the same level.
Everything else is just fluff. Hours-long tests with strenuous conditioning aspects are just an ego boost for the candidate.[/QUOTE]Yeah, we tried it your way a few times. You sure you understand the concept of Bullshido?
[QUOTE=killface;2806953]Nice but how many students passed it?
I would assume all or at least most of them. That is the only thing not hard enough. You do this kind of testing when you are ready and already know that you will pass. You might have to do some challenging physical exercises but there is not real fear involved.
I don’t think there is a quick fix for that or anything, just an aspect to consider.
Anyway, cool video, great school. Totally envious.[/QUOTE]Those candidates are still waiting for the results. I hate those type of tests. I mean, why even bother calling those tests? Those are more like “Graduations.”
[QUOTE=erezb;2806942]Physical fitness test (work out for an hour before test time; again see video)
Kicking proficiency
Striking proficiency
If it was me planning it, i think the fitness part should be separate and more measurable, like a certain time you need to come down from for a mile run, a certain push up, pullup number etc. Maybe add some crossfit oriented drills (like a combo of burpees sprints and pull ups needed to be done under 3 minutes). I would not do it on the same day, i would do it routinely and for a candidate for a black belt it should be clear what the level should be. He should pass those “tests” a few times a year and keep in good condition the entire year. You could also condition the application by being able to perform a full split and certain specialized physical abilities needed for a black belt.
The striking proficiency part: I would like to see them punch and kick MT mitts, doing some planned combos, and having a round of improvised combos with some pressure from the holder (he attacks and presents freely). If the holder is one of the evaluatours he can asses the force and focus of the strikes first hand. The guys on the side can evaluate technique, leg work and reaction time to the target or threat presented.
The sparring part is good, though if you had inter-club competitions, it could be better to give credit for participating and especially winning those matches.
Bottom line a black belt in kung fu should be someone not to fuck with. I guess if you want to make some exceptions for women and youngsters you can compare them to their own demographics.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for letting us know you’re also a misogynist along with being a racist.
Anyway you really want to know the break down?
Adult lead up:
100 push ups
100 jumping jacks
100 burpees
5k 30 Minutes
Day of:
10 stadiums
100 jumping jacks
100 burpees
100 meter fireman carry
100 meter wheel barrel
50 push ups on knuckles
If finished before 30 minutes you must do jumping jacks until that time.
4K run, every time you had to stop you must do burpees.
If person arrives at gym before hand they had to do squats with their weight on the squat cage.
Junior:
50 burpees
50 meter grappling exercises (shrimps, bear crawls, various falls)
1600 meters 8 minutes
50 push ups
100 jumping jacks
10 plyo jumps at waist level
100 kicks both legs.
(These were done during lead up and the day of. Lead up these exercises were spread out. Day of they had to do them all within the hour.)
I think the fact they had to fight fresh experienced fights during their test after training for nearly 8 hours is okay.
As of the focus mit/thai pads. Really? I edited that out. It’s kind of boring to watch.
I think some of you are confusing the point of this post. I didn’t say “My style”. I always thought Bullshido was looking for a standard.
I physically examined my candidates
I tested them on knowledge
I tested them under pressure
Fortunately for me I wasn’t naive enough to believe that it wouldn’t receive a degree of criticism. I’ve been part of these boards for over 11 years. This is the stuff I thought we talked about. We’ve argued about forms/kata over alive training. We’ve talked about real sparring. Gathered on the testing panel were 10 instructors not part of our system. Several of which are long time members of these boards.
I wanted my students to be proud of doing this test. They are. I’ve done my job. As for this site I guess Ignorami definitively called it.
The only standard I personally look for is that people be truthful about what they’re doing/selling.
[QUOTE=CrackFox;2806977]The only standard I personally look for is that people be truthful about what they’re doing/selling.[/QUOTE]
We understand that you’re trying to be an asshole. You’ve been successful, now how about you just go run along and play with your Legos?
Have fun Omega, I’m out. This is going to get ridiculous before it gets better. I was going to trollshido Ignorami’s post, but I waited because I knew he was right.
[QUOTE=Diesel_tke;2806959]I think it is really good. This is something that you will feel accomplishment for all of the years of training. And get you some bragging rights at the end. If you passed, you should be able to handle yourself in a majority of the ranges of a fight, if not all of them.
Anyone should be proud to obtain a blackbelt under this criteria.[/QUOTE]
I’ll go further than that. This testing model represents a major step up from what has been the usual 15 minute, do a few katas, break a couple of boards type of black belt test that has become altogether too common in MA. This model of testing not only provides a more accurate assessment of MA ability, because it is so rigorous it serves as an ordeal or initiation process, so a student can feel that he has acomplished something special, has become a mature member of his school, and has truly joined the ranks of accomplished martial artists.
[QUOTE=Diesel_tke;2806959]I think it is really good. This is something that you will feel accomplishment for all of the years of training. And get you some bragging rights at the end. If you passed, you should be able to handle yourself in a majority of the ranges of a fight, if not all of them.
Anyone should be proud to obtain a blackbelt under this criteria.[/QUOTE]
I’ll go further than that. This testing model represents a major step up from what has been the usual 15 minute, do a few katas, break a couple of boards type of black belt test that has become altogether too common in MA. This model of testing not only provides a more accurate assessment of MA ability, because it is so rigorous it serves as an ordeal or initiation process, so a student can feel that he has acomplished something special, has become a mature member of his school, and has truly joined the ranks of accomplished martial artists.
Guest panel contained someone claiming to study Ninjitsu (14:45 in the video) does that make the test invalid, or is Ninjitsu all good now?
Oh sweet irony…
Damn, I wish I could train at Omega’s gym. That test looks seriously grueling. Anyone that passes is clearly not someone to be fucked with.
Hours-long tests of calisthenics, forms, pre-set self-defense responses, and light sparring are par for the course for TMA/bullshido/non-alive/McDojo/whatever schools’ black belt tests. That’s not to say they’re bad. It’s just entirely normal for in light-contact karate/kung-fu schools.
I’m with NeilG. The hours of conditioning and demonstration is largely fluff, because what we’re doing is trying to formalize and complicate a pretty straightforward procedure: instructor thinks you’re ready, so here’s the rank. I prefer the casual approach (“here you go, you earned it”), the competition approach (“you won that tournament, here you go”), and the judo approach (zero-sum shiai plus kata). I don’t particularly mind the conditioning element–physicality is important–but to tout it as some sort of newfangled Bullshido-approved amazingness is eyebrow-raising.
I feel like a Bullshido.net black belt test would involve an amateur ring fight, a judo-style zero-sum shiai, and a weightlifting meet, and at the end you don’t get a black belt, you just get the experience of having fought in a ring, fought in a tournament, and lifted weights.
[QUOTE=1point2;2807065]Hours-long tests of calisthenics, forms, pre-set self-defense responses, and light sparring are par for the course for TMA/bullshido/non-alive/McDojo/whatever schools’ black belt tests. That’s not to say they’re bad. It’s just entirely normal for in light-contact karate/kung-fu schools.
I’m with NeilG. The hours of conditioning and demonstration is largely fluff, because what we’re doing is trying to formalize and complicate a pretty straightforward procedure: instructor thinks you’re ready, so here’s the rank. I prefer the casual approach (“here you go, you earned it”), the competition approach (“you won that tournament, here you go”), and the judo approach (zero-sum shiai plus kata). I don’t particularly mind the conditioning element–physicality is important–but to tout it as some sort of newfangled Bullshido-approved amazingness is eyebrow-raising.
I feel like a Bullshido.net black belt test would involve an amateur ring fight, a judo-style zero-sum shiai, and a weightlifting meet, and at the end you don’t get a black belt, you just get the experience of having fought in a ring, fought in a tournament, and lifted weights.[/QUOTE]
The whole problem started with the erosion of the black belt idea because you had money driven trainers that for marketing reasons gave away black belts to kids, and to undeserving adults. So the idea of a standard for a black belt is actually a good quality assurance protocol. Why diss having a fight experience? why diss physical ability? It’s not like those caveats of the test are instead of good technique and the regular black belt trad MA stuff.
[QUOTE=1point2;2807065]Hours-long tests of calisthenics, forms, pre-set self-defense responses, and light sparring are par for the course for TMA/bullshido/non-alive/McDojo/whatever schools’ black belt tests. That’s not to say they’re bad. It’s just entirely normal for in light-contact karate/kung-fu schools.
I’m with NeilG. The hours of conditioning and demonstration is largely fluff, because what we’re doing is trying to formalize and complicate a pretty straightforward procedure: instructor thinks you’re ready, so here’s the rank. I prefer the casual approach (“here you go, you earned it”), the competition approach (“you won that tournament, here you go”), and the judo approach (zero-sum shiai plus kata). I don’t particularly mind the conditioning element–physicality is important–but to tout it as some sort of newfangled Bullshido-approved amazingness is eyebrow-raising.
I feel like a Bullshido.net black belt test would involve an amateur ring fight, a judo-style zero-sum shiai, and a weightlifting meet, and at the end you don’t get a black belt, you just get the experience of having fought in a ring, fought in a tournament, and lifted weights.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you’re in a much better area than me for MA schools, or maybe I just had bad luck and went to the wrong places. Over many years of MA practice, including practice at three light contact karate schools, and in years of taking my kids around to different schools, the 15-20 minutes testing time per candidate was what I saw. Maybe we’re talking about different things – the time testing an entire group collectively might have taken an hour or longer, but to the extent each candidate was scrutinized separately, breaking, sparring, etc., it took no longer than about 15 minutes each.
I don’t have a problem with the casual approach you described, if the instructor prefers it (tho at least for kids, I think it doesnt amount to as much recognition or reward). But IMO, if you’re going to hold a formal test to award a black belt, each candidate deserves individual attention, it should test a variety of skills and take more than a few pro forma minutes each, and when its over there should be no doubt it was a challenging test. I’d say the testing shown in these videos meet those requirements.
Question – if you don’t think testing aerobic fitness is worthwhile then why have them lift weights? Potentially, each candidate can demonstrate a high level of aerobic fitness, but not every candidate will be able to lift heavy weight regardless of effort.
[QUOTE=CapnMunchh;2807076]Sounds like you’re in a much better area than me for MA schools, or maybe I just had bad luck and went to the wrong places. Over many years of MA practice, including practice at three light contact karate schools, and in years of taking my kids around to different schools, the 15-20 minutes testing time per candidate was what I saw. Maybe we’re talking about different things – the time testing an entire group collectively might have taken an hour or longer, but to the extent each candidate was scrutinized separately, breaking, sparring, etc., it took no longer than about 15 minutes each.
I don’t have a problem with the casual approach you described, if the instructor prefers it (tho at least for kids, I think it doesnt amount to as much recognition or reward). But IMO, if you’re going to hold a formal test to award a black belt, each candidate deserves individual attention, it should test a variety of skills and take more than a few pro forma minutes each, and when its over there should be no doubt it was a challenging test. I’d say the testing shown in these videos meet those requirements.
Question – if you don’t think testing aerobic fitness is worthwhile then why have them lift weights? Potentially, each candidate can demonstrate a high level of aerobic fitness, but not every candidate will be able to lift heavy weight regardless of effort.[/QUOTE]
I am glad you quoted 1point2. I have him on my ignore list because he’s generally full of shit. I’m glad nothing has changed.
I am sure that the reason him and NeilG down play this type of testing is because they themselves are incapable of participating in a test because it would show their true character or lack there of. Why either of them are here is beyond me.
What they call fluff I call a sense of achievement. As I told each one of the candidates “Pass or fail nobody can take this day away from you.” and they were happy about that. In the past we’ve complained about fat, overweight and generally non skilled people who’ve gotten their blackbelts. People who couldn’t kick over their head. People who knew nothing of self-defense. Some arts specialize in specific areas. They have ways to test. I’ve even been on the receiving end of the “Hey, you’re skilled enough, or you won the competition here’s your black belt” end of things. That always left me empty inside. That’s how I obtained my first blackbelt.
So I took the complaining that I’ve seen so many times on these boards and I put it to the test. Like normal we have the mixture of opinions. I did not expect it out of two supposed instructors.
[QUOTE=1point2;2807065]
[/QUOTE]
I can’t speak for the entire forum but I believe if Bullshido could give some criteria to what a “Black Belt” test might look like I believe this might be it.
Now, explain where you got bullshido approved from.
[QUOTE=Omega Supreme;2807078]I am sure that the reason him and NeilG down play this type of testing is because they themselves are incapable of participating in a test because it would show their true character or lack there of. [/QUOTE] That must be it, It couldn’t possibly be that I merely disagree with you. Or maybe your panties are in a twist because I criticized your student’s weapons work?
In the past we’ve complained about fat, overweight and generally non skilled people who’ve gotten their blackbelts. People who couldn’t kick over their head. People who knew nothing of self-defense.
Well, then you test that they can kick over their heads, if that’s part of your requirements. You test that they know self-defence. That’s why I said the test should involve evaluating their skills, and evaluating they can apply the skills against an opponent going for the same rank. If they don’t have sufficient fitness to apply the skills, then they are going to fail, aren’t they? No need to make them run stairs except for a sense of accomplishment, as you stated. Fluff, ego-boost, nothing to do with the skillset they are taught.
I think the physical conditioning testing is almost as important as the technique stuff. All the technique in the world is useless if you are collapsed on the floor wheezing 30sec into the fight.
NeilG who shit on your doorstep? I expect this asshattery from Crackfox and 1Pokemon2, but when did you stop being able to take what you dish out? You took a jab at his teaching and he returned the favor.