Biomechanical Classification of Throwing Techniques of Judo (and everything else)

Martial Arts Training Forums BJJ and Advanced Grappling Forum
1

I’ve posted articles before about the new(ish) biomechanical classification of Judo throwing techniques. The same biomechanics apply to all throwing techniques, though, so I decided to post these in the advanced grappling forum.

I don’t have much commentary to add, as I’m neither a kinesiologist, physicist, nor expert or even passingly knowledgeable of biomechanics. This research has helped me understand better though how to throw a MF, or at least how throwing an MF really works, biomechanically speaking.

You would be astonished that whenever I post these on say, the judo coaches group on bookface, that exactly ZERO discussion is generated…

We are all such smart fellows, surely we can find something to talk about on the topic, even it it IS Devil’s sex life, or how smug Rayce is.

The author is Attilio Sacripanti. Yes, he is Italian, and yes, he is a real researcher, who also happens to be a wrestler and judoka. The articles are translated from Italian, but are easy enough to read.

Essentially, there are two end-members of throwing techniques:
1.) Lever Throws
2.) Force Couple Throws

The two can be combined, but the biomechanical principles (lever and force couple) are always distinct.

So put on your thinking caps and read through these at your leisure, and get edu-macated.

Biomechanical Classification of Judo Throwing Techniques (Nage Waza)
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0806/0806.4091.pdf
or here:
[URL=“https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/view/2314/2187Uchi”]https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/view/2314/2187

Uchi Mata Family analysis for coaches and teachers (Force Couple)
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1602/1602.02165.pdfA

Seoi survey for Coaches and Teachers (Lever)
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.01372.pdfAnd

And for even more enlightenment (maybe):
Astonishing Jūdō, first contact tactics A Biomechanical evaluation of tactical tools at start of high level competitions
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1411/1411.2763.pdf

2

[QUOTE=BKR;2977588]I’ve posted articles before about the new(ish) biomechanical classification of Judo throwing techniques. The same biomechanics apply to all throwing techniques, though, so I decided to post these in the advanced grappling forum.

I don’t have much commentary to add, as I’m neither a kinesiologist, physicist, nor expert or even passingly knowledgeable of biomechanics. This research has helped me understand better though how to throw a MF, or at least how throwing an MF really works, biomechanically speaking.

You would be astonished that whenever I post these on say, the judo coaches group on bookface, that exactly ZERO discussion is generated…

We are all such smart fellows, surely we can find something to talk about on the topic, even it it IS Devil’s sex life, or how smug Rayce is.

The author is Attilio Sacripanti. Yes, he is Italian, and yes, he is a real researcher, who also happens to be a wrestler and judoka. The articles are translated from Italian, but are easy enough to read.

Essentially, there are two end-members of throwing techniques:
1.) Lever Throws
2.) Force Couple Throws

The two can be combined, but the biomechanical principles (lever and force couple) are always distinct.

So put on your thinking caps and read through these at your leisure, and get edu-macated.

Biomechanical Classification of Judo Throwing Techniques (Nage Waza)
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0806/0806.4091.pdf
or here:
[URL=“https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/view/2314/2187Uchi”]https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/view/2314/2187

Uchi Mata Family analysis for coaches and teachers (Force Couple)
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1602/1602.02165.pdfA

Seoi survey for Coaches and Teachers (Lever)
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.01372.pdfAnd

And for even more enlightenment (maybe):
Astonishing Jūdō, first contact tactics A Biomechanical evaluation of tactical tools at start of high level competitions
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1411/1411.2763.pdf[/QUOTE]

First, thank you for posting these.

Second, I will read them carefully. Starting tomorrow. Because this is not Martini reading.

Third, Thank you again for posting these. In particular, the works cited will also lead to further reading.

Finally, you know why people don’t comment on these types of articles.
They sometimes contradict dogma and distract from the competition practice everybody is used to doing.
You know, to throw somebody now. This practice. This Randori. Shiai style. With our powerful muscles and speed.

3

[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2977590]First, thank you for posting these.

Second, I will read them carefully. Starting tomorrow. Because this is not Martini reading.

Third, Thank you again for posting these. In particular, the works cited will also lead to further reading.

Finally, you know why people don’t comment on these types of articles.
They sometimes contradict dogma and distract from the competition practice everybody is used to doing.
You know, to throw somebody now. This practice. This Randori. Shiai style. With our powerful muscles and speed.[/QUOTE]

Ironically the author is aiming his research at Elite level athlete competition.

Seems to me anyway…

I agree it’s not Martini reading I had to print them out a long time ago and read them and underline and highlight.

And to think which is hard.

4

Yes he has quite a few other papers out there that are pretty easy to find.

5

[QUOTE=BKR;2977588]I’ve posted articles before about the new(ish) biomechanical classification of Judo throwing techniques. The same biomechanics apply to all throwing techniques, though, so I decided to post these in the advanced grappling forum.

I don’t have much commentary to add, as I’m neither a kinesiologist, physicist, nor expert or even passingly knowledgeable of biomechanics. This research has helped me understand better though how to throw a MF, or at least how throwing an MF really works, biomechanically speaking.

You would be astonished that whenever I post these on say, the judo coaches group on bookface, that exactly ZERO discussion is generated…

We are all such smart fellows, surely we can find something to talk about on the topic, even it it IS Devil’s sex life, or how smug Rayce is.

The author is Attilio Sacripanti. Yes, he is Italian, and yes, he is a real researcher, who also happens to be a wrestler and judoka. The articles are translated from Italian, but are easy enough to read.

Essentially, there are two end-members of throwing techniques:
1.) Lever Throws
2.) Force Couple Throws

The two can be combined, but the biomechanical principles (lever and force couple) are always distinct.

So put on your thinking caps and read through these at your leisure, and get edu-macated.

Biomechanical Classification of Judo Throwing Techniques (Nage Waza)
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0806/0806.4091.pdf
or here:
[URL=“https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/view/2314/2187Uchi”]https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/view/2314/2187

Uchi Mata Family analysis for coaches and teachers (Force Couple)
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1602/1602.02165.pdfA

Seoi survey for Coaches and Teachers (Lever)
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.01372.pdfAnd

And for even more enlightenment (maybe):
Astonishing Jūdō, first contact tactics A Biomechanical evaluation of tactical tools at start of high level competitions
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1411/1411.2763.pdf[/QUOTE]

I guess this is where I point out that A.I. Retuinskih broke this all down in his ROSS training manuals like 30+ years ago and Scott Sonnon released a video series(Imovable Object Unstoppable Force) on it like 20yrs ago. Glad to see the rest of the world is finally catching up.
[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2977590]First, thank you for posting these.

Second, I will read them carefully. Starting tomorrow. Because this is not Martini reading.

Third, Thank you again for posting these. In particular, the works cited will also lead to further reading.

Finally, you know why people don’t comment on these types of articles.
They sometimes contradict dogma and distract from the competition practice everybody is used to doing.
You know, to throw somebody now. This practice. This Randori. Shiai style. With our powerful muscles and speed.[/QUOTE]
I gotta agree with Murphy on this one. I was first introduced to this type of principle focused training when I was on the Junior National team under Anatoly Petrosyan. That became my major foundation for how I viewed grappling sports.

Now people ask me to teach my style of takedowns, and then they tell me I explain too much. Just get on with the technique, we don’t need all these principles and biomechanics. Truth is, the number of times I’ve had a technique come off without a hitch I can count on my hands and have fingers left over. My understanding of the core principles and biomechanics though has allowed me to innovate on the spot and pull of some truly magnificent stuff.

6

Somewhere deep in the bowels of my defunct training log is an entry I made years ago which says something to the effect of “all BJJ moves are the same.” Basically Just Judo. All “true” H2H combat systems share the same principles - takedown, joint manipulation, breaking bones, choking, concussive injury, escape; the only differences I see are in rules, strategies, and emphasis.

7

[QUOTE=submessenger;2977621]Somewhere deep in the bowels of my defunct training log is an entry I made years ago which says something to the effect of “all BJJ moves are the same.” Basically Just Judo. All “true” H2H combat systems share the same principles - takedown, joint manipulation, breaking bones, choking, concussive injury, escape; the only differences I see are in rules, strategies, and emphasis.[/QUOTE]

Indeed I agree. Especially now you’ve got the internet and information is so easy to obtain, I feel as if the ruleset often (but not always) reflects how the style a particular practitioner is going to fight. Everyone trains in everything anymore, and while someone may have be taught BJJ, trained BJJ, or is ranked in BJJ that doesn’t guarantee they’ll fight with a BJJ strategy for example.

Far as I’m concerned, there are several different ways to fight, throw, and lock a limb- but there will most definitely be a most/least efficient way to do it as well…

8

[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;2977608]I guess this is where I point out that A.I. Retuinskih broke this all down in his ROSS training manuals like 30+ years ago and Scott Sonnon released a video series(Imovable Object Unstoppable Force) on it like 20yrs ago. Glad to see the rest of the world is finally catching up.I gotta agree with Murphy on this one. I was first introduced to this type of principle focused training when I was on the Junior National team under Anatoly Petrosyan. That became my major foundation for how I viewed grappling sports.Now people ask me to teach my style of takedowns, and then they tell me I explain too much. Just get on with the technique, we don’t need all these principles and biomechanics. Truth is, the number of times I’ve had a technique come off without a hitch I can count on my hands and have fingers left over. My understanding of the core principles and biomechanics though has allowed me to innovate on the spot and pull of some truly magnificent stuff.[/QUOTE]That’s interesting for sure, however, didn’t know either of those gentlemen were biomechanical experts. I have similar problems teaching Judo at times. I’ve introduced the material to my older students, and they just don’t quite get it, or want to get it. Moar randori… which isn’t necessarily a bad idea, but, you need to have some sort of objectives and goals in mind. I’ve got one student now (who is at the interprovincial training center now) who would actually listen and kind of understand, and would also work on specific things in randori, even if it meant getting dumped while trying.

9

[QUOTE=BKR;2977606]If you paid attention you would have remembered I said the same thing quite a while ago probably more than once here however of course I learned it from these papers.

Shocking isn’t it and then shimada really the same throw. Same principle anyway.[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t ready to understand it I suppose because I have no recollection of it really. I sucked at uchi Mata until relatively recently. Now days I have really turn down my amplitude in sparing a bit. I struggled with that throw for some reason.

There’s some dead links there. Do you have other sources for the uchi and seio stuff?

10

[QUOTE=BKR;2977633]That’s interesting for sure, however, didn’t know either of those gentlemen were biomechanical experts. I have similar problems teaching Judo at times. I’ve introduced the material to my older students, and they just don’t quite get it, or want to get it. Moar randori… which isn’t necessarily a bad idea, but, you need to have some sort of objectives and goals in mind. I’ve got one student now (who is at the interprovincial training center now) who would actually listen and kind of understand, and would also work on specific things in randori, even if it meant getting dumped while trying.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know all of A.I. Retuinskih’s educational credentials, I do know that he worked with biomechanical experts. Fair criticism is that it has taken a long time for that sort of stuff to filter out of Russia for various reasons. Even Anatoly Petrosyan with a proven track record of making Olympic Champions had a hard time getting people to listen to him at the Olympic Training Center. People still see him as odd.

Scott Sonnon, I’m not going to touch on his educational credentials at all, I’ll leave that to others to research. When he released his video series was more or less taking Retuinskih’s work and putting in an English format with some proprietary language thrown in.

11

[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;2977635]I don’t know all of A.I. Retuinskih’s educational credentials, I do know that he worked with biomechanical experts. Fair criticism is that it has taken a long time for that sort of stuff to filter out of Russia for various reasons. Even Anatoly Petrosyan with a proven track record of making Olympic Champions had a hard time getting people to listen to him at the Olympic Training Center. People still see him as odd.

Scott Sonnon, I’m not going to touch on his educational credentials at all, I’ll leave that to others to research. When he released his video series was more or less taking Retuinskih’s work and putting in an English format with some proprietary language thrown in.[/QUOTE]

Russians invented everything!

12

[QUOTE=BKR;2977652]Russians invented everything![/QUOTE]
I don’t know if they invented it. They surely embraced it pretty quick though. I think that is the main difference. Having a socialistic system that was intent on proving their sporting superiority by any means necessary, they didn’t get as bogged down with dogma. They weren’t going to teach a thing just because Kano did or because that is way it was always done. Also until recently in Russia the coaches were not sportsmen themselves, they tended to be high forehead types who had a lot of theoretical knowledge but often had never actually competitively played the sport. So all of that lead to a decreased reliance on tradition.

13

[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2977634]I wasn’t ready to understand it I suppose because I have no recollection of it really. I sucked at uchi Mata until relatively recently. Now days I have really turn down my amplitude in sparing a bit. I struggled with that throw for some reason.

There’s some dead links there. Do you have other sources for the uchi and seio stuff?[/QUOTE]

I’ll check out the dead links Etc in a little while I’m pretty slammed at work we have a trial today and tomorrow.

In the meanwhile if you do a Google search on sacriponti you’ll come up with quite a bit of stuff

Uchi Mata is not an easy throw to do, especially against resisting opponent. In the past I could demonstrated fairly well and different varieties.

But I rarely threw people with it in competition or Randori.

Let’s face it you’re standing on one leg and you have to do at least a partial turn of your body, with the right timing. Not trivial!

14

[QUOTE=Raycetpfl;2977634]There’s some dead links there. Do you have other sources for the uchi and seio stuff?[/QUOTE]

Uchi Mata Family analysis for coaches and teachers: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1602/1602.02165.pdf

A Seoi survey for Coaches and Teachers: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.01372.pdf

Biomechanical Classification of Judo Throwing Techniques (Nage Waza): https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0806/0806.4091.pdf

Astonishing Jūdō, first contact tactics: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1411/1411.2763.pdf

More of Sacripanti here: http://uniroma2.academia.edu/Attiliosacripanti

15

[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;2977656]I don’t know if they invented it. They surely embraced it pretty quick though. I think that is the main difference. Having a socialistic system that was intent on proving their sporting superiority by any means necessary, they didn’t get as bogged down with dogma. They weren’t going to teach a thing just because Kano did or because that is way it was always done. Also until recently in Russia the coaches were not sportsmen themselves, they tended to be high forehead types who had a lot of theoretical knowledge but often had never actually competitively played the sport. So all of that lead to a decreased reliance on tradition.[/QUOTE]

I’m all for Science and scientific training methods.

The tradition in Judo is really more philosophical than anything. And even that Kano kind of cribbed from Western philosophers.

This is a little off topic but one of the things that I see in modern training is what I would call severe overtraining of Judo athletes. If you read and or listen to Travis Stevens of blogs and interviews, you can get a taste of that.

The Judo training schedule for teenagers at at provincial and interprovincial training centers seems to me to be excessive in some ways.

I don’t know if that’s really necessary even for adults or if it’s some hangover from the old spiritual forging type of ideal that one finds in budo (shugyo).

Of course you’ve trained and competed at an elite level so you know what I’m talking about although I don’t know if it’s the same in wrestling.

So it seems to me that outside of physical conditioning which due to genetic limitations one can only be so strong or have so good of cardio, there should be a way to train most efficiently particularly with regard to these biomechanical principles we are discussing.

In one of the articles I posted sacriponti seems to touch on that.

16

[QUOTE=DCS;2977668]Uchi Mata Family analysis for coaches and teachers: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1602/1602.02165.pdf

A Seoi survey for Coaches and Teachers: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.01372.pdf

Biomechanical Classification of Judo Throwing Techniques (Nage Waza): https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0806/0806.4091.pdf

Astonishing Jūdō, first contact tactics: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1411/1411.2763.pdf

More of Sacripanti here: http://uniroma2.academia.edu/Attiliosacripanti[/QUOTE]

Fantastic

17

[QUOTE=DCS;2977668]Uchi Mata Family analysis for coaches and teachers: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1602/1602.02165.pdfA Seoi survey for Coaches and Teachers: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.01372.pdfBiomechanical Classification of Judo Throwing Techniques (Nage Waza): https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0806/0806.4091.pdfAstonishing Jūdō, first contact tactics: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1411/1411.2763.pdfMore of Sacripanti here: http://uniroma2.academia.edu/Attiliosacripanti[/QUOTE]Thanks, DCS, I got out of court a few ago and had a window open to search. Not sure why the links I posted were dead. I have a lot of his papers downloaded on the home computer in PDF format.Rayce, if I were you I would download them and print them, not telling when links will go dead or get moved, etc.

18

[QUOTE=BKR;2977712]Thanks, DCS, I got out of court a few ago and had a window open to search. Not sure why the links I posted were dead. I have a lot of his papers downloaded on the home computer in PDF format.Rayce, if I were you I would download them and print them, not telling when links will go dead or get moved, etc.[/QUOTE]

Good advice, thanks.

19

[QUOTE=BKR;2977670]I’m all for Science and scientific training methods.

The tradition in Judo is really more philosophical than anything. And even that Kano kind of cribbed from Western philosophers.

This is a little off topic but one of the things that I see in modern training is what I would call severe overtraining of Judo athletes. If you read and or listen to Travis Stevens of blogs and interviews, you can get a taste of that.

The Judo training schedule for teenagers at at provincial and interprovincial training centers seems to me to be excessive in some ways.

I don’t know if that’s really necessary even for adults or if it’s some hangover from the old spiritual forging type of ideal that one finds in budo (shugyo).

Of course you’ve trained and competed at an elite level so you know what I’m talking about although I don’t know if it’s the same in wrestling.

So it seems to me that outside of physical conditioning which due to genetic limitations one can only be so strong or have so good of cardio, there should be a way to train most efficiently particularly with regard to these biomechanical principles we are discussing.

In one of the articles I posted sacriponti seems to touch on that.[/QUOTE]
I had seen a video, I can’t find it just now, but it essentially showed the overtraining that occurred under Kano. It showed just how brutal his training was with 400+ pushups per day ect. I’ll see if I can find it sometime in the near future, but essentially it was brutalizing your body and then lots of Randori.

In high level wrestling we trained a lot, but it wasn’t that crazy. Wrestling, even at the international level is more of a seasonal sport. So we would start with a pre-season intensive for 21 days(Dan Gable made them famous called them Iowa Intensives). Those straight up sucked. Once you were through that though, training even at the national level tended to be just 2 1.5 to 2hr sessions per day. One session would be conditioning and one session would be technique. Wrestling full matches, or even full periods in either was rare. Dan Gable and Anatoly Petrosyan were fans of “short time drills”. Essentially you start in a position or scenario and have 10-30 seconds to bring it to a conclusion, then a 5-15 second rest(half the time you were active for) and then reset and go again. So for instance if we had been learning single legs, the Uke would allow the Tori to set up his shot without serious resistance, but once the Tori got the single(arms enwrap the leg) the Uke starts defending for all he is worth, while the Tori tries to adapt and finish the single. As they advance you can get more sinister. One I did for some of the guys in my BJJ club was the Tori had to get a single leg and transition into a submission, failure meant 15 burpees during rest period. Uke couldn’t get taken down, failure meant 15 burpees during rest period. One guy really hated me for that, until in a match he needed to win to secure a place on the Israel national team against a higher belt. My guy shot in for a take down, and secured an armbar submission in 6.5 seconds from the time ref said Combate. The other guy got up looking all kinds of confused because he didn’t know what hit him.

Ben Askren talks about it in a Joe Rogan talk(start at 5min mark):

//youtu.be/ijAMRqBZgo8

While it isn’t biomechanincal and I realize we are wandering a bit, but for scientifically advanced training methods, I think things other than totally free randori is better option for getting people to advance.

20

[QUOTE=Michael Tzadok;2977755]I had seen a video, I can’t find it just now, but it essentially showed the overtraining that occurred under Kano. It showed just how brutal his training was with 400+ pushups per day ect. I’ll see if I can find it sometime in the near future, but essentially it was brutalizing your body and then lots of Randori.

In high level wrestling we trained a lot, but it wasn’t that crazy. Wrestling, even at the international level is more of a seasonal sport. So we would start with a pre-season intensive for 21 days(Dan Gable made them famous called them Iowa Intensives). Those straight up sucked. Once you were through that though, training even at the national level tended to be just 2 1.5 to 2hr sessions per day. One session would be conditioning and one session would be technique. Wrestling full matches, or even full periods in either was rare. Dan Gable and Anatoly Petrosyan were fans of “short time drills”. Essentially you start in a position or scenario and have 10-30 seconds to bring it to a conclusion, then a 5-15 second rest(half the time you were active for) and then reset and go again. So for instance if we had been learning single legs, the Uke would allow the Tori to set up his shot without serious resistance, but once the Tori got the single(arms enwrap the leg) the Uke starts defending for all he is worth, while the Tori tries to adapt and finish the single. As they advance you can get more sinister. One I did for some of the guys in my BJJ club was the Tori had to get a single leg and transition into a submission, failure meant 15 burpees during rest period. Uke couldn’t get taken down, failure meant 15 burpees during rest period. One guy really hated me for that, until in a match he needed to win to secure a place on the Israel national team against a higher belt. My guy shot in for a take down, and secured an armbar submission in 6.5 seconds from the time ref said Combate. The other guy got up looking all kinds of confused because he didn’t know what hit him.

Ben Askren talks about it in a Joe Rogan talk(start at 5min mark):

//youtu.be/ijAMRqBZgo8

While it isn’t biomechanincal and I realize we are wandering a bit, but for scientifically advanced training methods, I think things other than totally free randori is better option for getting people to advance.[/QUOTE]

Well, I agree 100% and that’s how I try to train my students. When training becomes survival of the fittest (and to some degree it is, no matter what), it’s gone into the realm of some sort of weird sadism. There is a place to push yourself and students, but it shouldn’t be the sum total of the training.

Shugyo, spritual forging, a hangover/relic from budo…

And thanks for the detailed response, because I often doubt how I train people at times compared to other coaches. Reading stuff like you wrote is very encouraging.