From all accounts, Lee was pretty agitated, plus, Wong didn’t do “Chun”. Besides that, slap fight all the way. What’s funny is Lee once told Senator Gene Tunney that he could have defeated his world champion boxer father- all this based on him beating some stiff in the HK High School championship back in, what 1957-58? I shouldn’t even be wasting the time on posting this. Really martial arts is light years away from where these guys were, plus, there were legit guys fighting full contact even back then, they just called it boxing or wrestling or judo or muay thai or vale tudo or…
…or Kickboxing.
Namely, Joe Lewis-- a good source, since he both trained with Lee AND proved his ability in the ring. Having read over a number of the things that Joe Lewis has said, in regards to Bruce Lee, I’m certainly leaning more toward believing Wong’s story (though I still doubt the 20 to 25 minute claim). Now, while Joe Lewis wasn’t present at this fight, he has mentioned on several occasions that A) Bruce Lee was not a fighter, and B) when he first met Bruce, a great deal of the Dragon’s techniques were sorely lacking (particularly his kicking ability). This is a far cry from the Bruce-Lee-was-always-a-god-of-martial-arts mythos we’ve been fed for decades, and certainly makes more sense regarding why he’d want to alter his martial form than, “I didn’t beat him fast enough.”
Earlier it was mentioned that Wong wrote a detailed article describing the events of the fight for a Chinatown newspaper. Anyone know if it’s still in existence? Can we find a copy and a translation of that article, anywhere? It would certainly add a bit more to this conversation.
–Joe
The Joe Lewis angle sounds very interesting. What sorts of things has he said regarding Lee?
Joe Lewis says, often, that Bruce was not a fighter. That Bruce never competed-- as either an amateur or a professional-- and that he never sparred with Joe. Joe also maintains that, to his knowledge, Bruce never sparred with Mike Stone or Chuck Norris, either.
Additionally, Lewis maintains that when he first met Bruce Lee, the Dragon’s kicking repertoire was terrible. He pretty much had nothing but the low-kicks from Wing Chun, at that time. Lewis has said that Bruce’s hook kicks came from Chuck Norris’ influence, and that towards the end of his life, Bruce started adding Thai round kicks into his arsenal.
Joe Lewis does say, however, that Bruce was an incredible analytical mind, and was able to apply an abstract method of thought to fight strategy. His answer to the usual, “If Bruce didn’t spar, why were you learning from him?” question is that Angelo Dundee never sparred with Muhammed Ali. You don’t need to step into the ring against your student in order to teach them.
–Joe
P.S.-- I’m gonna try and gather URL’s for all the interviews that I read for this info. I know that it doesn’t relate directly to the Wong Jack Man fight, but I still think it’s useful in order to try and separate the real Man from the Myth.
EDIT:
Interview for “Razm Avar” magazine
Interview with Mike Miles (April 1998)
Interview with Paul Bax
I, of course, was not there either. My limited knowledge: Brent Hamby, one of the best san shou fighters/trainers in the US (EBM kung fu), was one of WJM’s guys. He says WJM had good stuff. I’ve always heard from WJM’s people that the fight was over Bruce bad-mouthing the other sifus in town, not about race.
Good luck hunting down more info…
Where does Joe Lewis teach at some where in Oklahoma right? Why does my mind have Altus, Oklahoma. That is if he still teaches. I say this, because I am in Oklhoma.
Brent is really good, but he’s also a Black Belt in Kyokushin, studied Greco Roman wrestling, Boxing and is a Blue (and should be, from all accounts, a purple or brown in BJJ). I’m sure he’s fond of WJM, and he does teach Kung Fu, but his kickboxing/Sanda is, well, extremely supplemented. All these other disciplines are no big secret, you can see it on his website. I would never insult the guy, he almost pulled my arm out of the socket- he’s the real deal. At the same time, at least on paper, he is dong more of what Bruce Lee advocated, learning other styles, and took it a step further, by actually competing. Wong has all kinds of white students, and from what I can piece together, he was goaded into the fight.
In regard to WJM taking the fight vs bruce and then teaching other races himself, I’m sure the people arguing for the fight chose a rep based not on dogmatic adherence but on a theoretical ability to stand up to Lee.
In other words, WJM was probably chosen as the rep because he could fight.
No secret at all, but you forgot to mention that his karate, boxing and kickboxing training were all in his teens, prior to meeting WJM. Also, maybe this quote indicates something more than a soft-heartedness for the old man:
Sifu Wong is a Northern Shaolin grandmaster from the Jing Mo association who has been teaching in San Francisco since 1961. Although famous for his fight with Bruce Lee, Wong’s true character and skill are known by few. Wong’s level of skill and mastery is beyond any normal standards. Under Wong Brent learned the Sun style Hsing I system, Yang style Tai Chi system, and Northern Shaolin system. It is Wong’s system that Brent teaches at the EBM Kung Fu Academy.
I happen to blieve Lee was one bad s.o.b., who left behind an amazing martial legacy, even after it’s separated from all the hype. There is plenty of evidence for that.
Unbeatable? Who is? Anyway…
Read this these pieces I’ve put together from Bruce Lee’s first U.S. student (studied with him on and off, for about 5 years) - some years before before Inosanto, Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Gene Lebelle… Notes in (brackets) and underlining are mine…
Jesse: In a real fight Bruce would have gone straight to the target, particularly in his later life. When he had the fight in Seattle (a fight Jesse was talking about) where I was the referee he waited for his attacker to make the first move. As he matured he came to think more and more of carrying the fight to the attacker instead of waiting. I have heard that when Bruce sparred with a few people he got hit. This is not something that he would have later risked in a fight.
Jesse: Bruce did practice chokes,pins and armlocks and wristlocks when I knew him.
Jesse: From what I can tell Bruce didn’t do Filipino martial arts. Let me also say that in a fight with a top Eskrima, Bruce wouldn’t have necessarily been the one to win. There are some of these men who can move as quickly as Bruce with a knife in their hand.
http://www.bruceleecentral.com/jessegloverinterview.htm
Jesse Glover - I wasn’t at the (Wong Jack Man) fight but Bruce told me about it. Wong and some of his followes came to a place where Bruce was working out. The only people with him were Linda and James Lee. At first Bruce was concerned because there was only him and james against several people (Linda was pregenant with Brandon at the time). Once that he learned that the fight would be between wong and him, his concern left him. After they squared off Bruce attacked. Wong turned and retreated and Bruce chased him. Wong was moving in the direction of Bruce’s punches to the head so they weren’t have much of an effect. Bruce said that he was running out of breath and that he knew if he didn’t end it that he would run out of wind. At this point he made an all-out effort to close the gap. When he caught up with Wong he knocked or threw him to the floor and mounted his chest. He forced him to say that he had made a mistake. At this point Bruce let him up. While Bruce was alive no one challenged his account of the fight.
http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/jesseglover.html
As a side note, years ago, Glover wrote a book about his time with Lee. (“Bruce Lee between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune” In it, he recalls he and Lee had attended a demonstration by Shotokan Karate’s, Hidetaka Nishiyama, author of “Karate: The Art of Empty Hand Fighting.”
I vaguely recall Glover writing that after the demonstration, Lee and Nishiyama had a long converstaion about the high kicks Nishiyama had displayed, and that Nishiyama demonstarted some of his high kicks for Lee. I recall this because, at the time I rwas reading Glover’s book I was also reading Nishiyama’s, and recall saying to myself, “Hey, I know who that is…” I think Lee was not impressed, but I’m not sure on this part…
Anyway, I mention this to say that Lee was exposed to high kicks way before he later ended up in California with Chuck, Lewis et, al; was doing some form of ground game, way before Labelle, and so forth. Earlier posts by others mention otherwise on some of these things, according to people who met Lee later. As for Joe Lewis, I’ll have to dig up where it was I saw he last had any communication with Lee when Lee was leaving for Honk Kong to satrt shooting on his first movie. He now claims Lee asked him to be in Way of the Dragon - sometime later. Even Van Williams has at times shifted stories about his time with Lee - all part of the legend, I guess…
Well, I’ve met him, sparred with him and been to his academy, which he does teach northern Siu Lum and Tai Chi at. From what I understand from people that knew him and worked with him out here over the years is that he did not just start those other arts in his teens, but they all could be liars. I’d really like someone to post WJM doing some stuff from way back when- he must be pretty good- most of his students like both forms and fighting- and I just want to see those abilities. I mean the guy is probably 65 years old now, so I wouldn’t expect him to wow anyone at this time, but it would be good, even a form demo, to have seen him in his prime.
Toner Dan- do you sell toner over the phone? We have a guy at my office that did that at one time.
BTW- I say everything with the utmost respect to Brent- I actually went to his school as my 7 year old son wanted to learn Northern Shaolin (after watching the Avatar) and he was the first choice. The reason I choose Brent was that he actually can fight, as do his students. Brent doesn’t teach kids, and my kid is into Soccer anyway, so…
Hi, I’m calling about your fax machine? Yeah, right - Wahtah!
Actually, while I was thinking of a name for myself for this site, some knuckle head called trying to sell me toner 20 times it’s actual cost. “Hey, I thought, telephone bullshido - that’s the name I’l use!”
By the way, here is one heck of an article on the good, the bad, the ugly, and, oh, the d34dly on B-Lee. I agree with almost 100% (but for the speculation as to how he died). The Wong Jack Man fight is dicussed, Lee’s connection to Lewis, and so forth.
I’m not trying to call anybody a liar. I was reacting to your suggestions that (a) WJM’s CMA wasn’t key to Brent’s martial education; and (b) that his respect for WJM wasn’t based (at least partially) on martial ability. According to Brent’s public statements, neither of those assertions is true. Sorry if I came off bristly.
Of course, none of this tells us what happened in the fight with Lee. It could be that WJM’s abilities came more from his xing-yi and taiji than his Shaolin, and that he hadn’t really learned how to fight yet when he was 25. Hell, it could even be the case that he started training harder/smarter after the fight with Lee…
The most interesting thing about this whole situation, Jack Man Wong is still alive and able to tell his side of the story. Bruce Lee is not.
You’re right- both of them probably upped there training, I’m sure. It’s a natural reaction, especially after a loss, or, at least, from what some others have said (James Wing Woo) an emberassment (I can never remember how to spell that). I remember the first time I got schooled trying to use my McDojo karate, I hit the gym hard. I imagine they both did. Really, it is never going to be resolved, and I doubt that the fight looked any better than the worst fight ever on TUF. At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter, right? I mean, knowing who won isn’t going to put money in your pocket, or make anyone a better fighter, really.
[quote] The most interesting thing about this whole situation, Jack Man Wong is still alive and able to tell his side of the story. Bruce Lee is not. [quote]
Perhaps, but as Jesse Glover pointed out at the end of my quote of his above - “While Bruce was alive no one challenged his account of the fight.”
This is possibly a good point - There was Lee, making WJM look bad on a national magazine - Black Belt - for all in the martial arts community to see, and Wong remains quite.
“I’d gotten into a fight in San Francisco (a reference, no doubt, to the Bay Area rather than the city) with a Kung-Fu cat, and after a brief encounter the son-of-a-bitch started to run. I chased him and, like a fool, kept punching him behind his head and back. Soon my fists began to swell from hitting his hard head. Right then I realized Wing Chun was not too practical and began to alter my way of fighting.” http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html
I only mention this because it seems to me to much has been made out of the abscence, thus far, of any video clips which might “prove” any of Lee’s true combat skills.
Take late mafia crime bosses, Al Capone and John Gotti, for example. The former was convicted based, not on, then, non-existant wire-tapping and video technology, but on documents and the word of one his accountants. While Gotti was imprisoned based on audio, video, coupled with the word of witnesses proven credible, inspite of their unseemly background.
Perhaps those other means might prove an interesting study…
Bullshit. Wong took out an ad in the Chinese Pacific Weekly after Lee started mouthing off about winning the fight. Read about it here:
The horror of all of this is that it was done at the expense of a good hearted Kung Fu Master, one who was more than willing to restore his reputation about the fight by inviting the general public to watch a rematch for free (this was issued in the Chinese Pacific Weekly shortly after so-called details of the fight were publicized). For whatever reason, Bruce Lee opted not to meet Sifu Wong after the publishing of the invite for a second public match.
… this whole thing is very he-said/she-said, and every source you’ve added to this thread has just quoted Lee’s story. We know what Lee said, we know what Wong said, but we won’t ever know what happened.
much has been made out of the abscence, thus far, of any video clips which might “prove” any of Lee’s true combat skills.
Dude was a movie star, not a pro fighter. It is very likely that he would have had his ass handed to him by any competent Muay Thai fighter or BJJ player. I’m sorry if this upsets you.
[QUOTE=Toner dan]
The most interesting thing about this whole situation, Jack Man Wong is still alive and able to tell his side of the story. Bruce Lee is not. [quote]
Perhaps, but as Jesse Glover pointed out at the end of my quote of his above - “While Bruce was alive no one challenged his account of the fight.”
This is possibly a good point - There was Lee, making WJM look bad on a national magazine - Black Belt - for all in the martial arts community to see, and Wong remains quite.
“I’d gotten into a fight in San Francisco (a reference, no doubt, to the Bay Area rather than the city) with a Kung-Fu cat, and after a brief encounter the son-of-a-bitch started to run. I chased him and, like a fool, kept punching him behind his head and back. Soon my fists began to swell from hitting his hard head. Right then I realized Wing Chun was not too practical and began to alter my way of fighting.” http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html
I only mention this because it seems to me to much has been made out of the abscence, thus far, of any video clips which might “prove” any of Lee’s true combat skills.
Take late mafia crime bosses, Al Capone and John Gotti, for example. The former was convicted based, not on, then, non-existant wire-tapping and video technology, but on documents and the word of one his accountants. While Gotti was imprisoned based on audio, video, coupled with the word of witnesses proven credible, inspite of their unseemly background.
Perhaps those other means might prove an interesting study…
For all we know, WJM didn’t read Black Belt. Christ, he may not read English. SF Chinatown is an insular.
All comments worth considering. And, no this does not upset me.
My point was, and I sincerely apologize for not being clear, my point was that there are other means of arriving at proving a thing other than a video clip.
Perhaps, it’d be great to have some clips of Lee kicking real ass - for whatever floats each viewer’s boat by it, etc. I’ve noticed in the 16 mm of him sparring that several people were filming that event, from various angles. What else was filmed? Who knows what else is even still out there? Until that time…
What you’ve added to this discussion, that WJM took out an ad and so forth, actuially makes my point - that there are other ways to investigate, other means to look into these these matters. In fact, I have to say that upon reading your reply I recalled having read about WJM’s ad…
Either way, video clip or not, please know I agree with your obvious assesment that Lee was a mere mortal, and from what I understand (not believe nor disbelieve, but understand), at times, a pretty screwed up one.
Though, to me, that does not take from that aspect of his legacy that I can be inspired by. As with Al Capon, for example, it’s one thing to admire his organizational genius - ruled an entire city at age 26 - and something else entirely to admire his crimes!
Anyway, hope that clears that up. Again, my apologies, and thinks for that bit on Wong I’d forgotten about.
Peace
No wonder Bruce Lee died so young…imagine the strain his body was under with so many people riding his nuts?
By the way, Wahoo McDaniel beat Bruce Lee up in a street fight on the roof tops of San Fransisco.