A Muay Thai Instructor's Review Of Djimbe's Kung Fu .

Reviews, Videos, and Everything Else Trollshido
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Originally posted by Khun Kao
[B]Hi gang…

This thread was called to my attention, and since I was the Muay Thai fighter mentioned above who went with Djimbe to his CMA class, I thought I should at least post my thoughts…

Quick background: I’ve been studying MA’s for about 15 years or so, 12 of which have been deveoted almost entirely to Muay Thai and Boxing (with a little submission grappling thrown in).

I went with Djimbe and Tigerfly to see Master Chan’s class after fighting on Friday night. I was introduced to Master Chan who is an extremely nice guy. Very respectful and a great sense of humor. He worked with me to the side of his class for a little bit to show me some of what he teaches is and how he defends/counters boxing and kicks.

My observations:

It is important to state that the few drills that I performed with Master Chan were prearranged drills. We each knew what the ‘attacker’ was going to do first, though we each reacted (countered) without it being ‘prearranged’. Also, we only did about 3 or 4 drills for about 10 minutes. I had just finished fighting in the “Mayhem on Mulberry Street” Muay Thai event, and I needed to get back to the arena to meet with my coaches and teammates.

Master Chan showed me some punch defenses. Master Chan is blazingly fast. I threw a punch and he slipped my punch and had clocked me in the jaw before it had registered that he had moved.

It was very obvious to me that he was holding back. When he hit me, he never followed through, but stopped as his strike as he placed it. Despite the fact that Master Chan was not following through on his strikes, I could feel the power behind them. We all know the difference between someone striking you correctly where it feels “solid” vs. when someone hits you wrong and it feels weak and soft. Despite Chan holding back, you could feel how solid the strikes were.

Also, when he was performing counter strikes vs. my boxing, he repeatedly was hitting the same spot on my arm over and over. Very precise, and he successfully “frogged” my arm each time.

Master Chan invited me to throw roundhouse kicks at him. He had an interesting defense where he angled his arm in such a manner that my kick kinda “slid” up his arm into his other hand to make for what felt like a very soft block. It felt like I was kicking a pillow, even though I was laying into the kicks pretty hard. (not full power, but about 70%). I only moved him with one kick.

Now, obviously my experience with Master Chan is very limited. We weren’t going hard, We weren’t doing anything “for real” We were just playing. What I can say is that my impression is that Master Chan is amazing. I have worked with many talented martial artists over the years, and I really feel that Master Chan is legit, and that what he is teaching is legit.

But, back to another point some of you have made…

Djimbe’s size.

I have questioned this myself. By his sheer size, he is able to do things that most of us cannot. I am 6’, 170 lbs. Despite my MT experience, Djimbe could maul me even had he not studied martial arts. So, how much of what he does and is capable of doing is simply by virtue of his size?

Who knows? I’m not sure he can be sure. I have sparred with him before (play sparring) and all I can truly say regarding his skill is that he is deceptively fast and he has excellent control.

I don’t know how much my “review” contributes to this discussion. All I can recommend is that I believe that any of you have the opportunity, hook up wtih Djimbe to go visit Master Chan. He is very nice and open-minded, and will work with you to show you his style and how it works. [/B]

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What the hell happened to the rest of this thread?

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For anyone Wondering why this is Posted here , It has been REPEATEDLY Proffered that somehowmy Training is , on some Level , Bullshido . Ive heard them all :

Chenese Stuff all sux
Internal Stuff all sux
Youre just big , that means that you have no Skills .
Youre so big that you just THINK its the Kungf Fu , Its really just youre Size …

Blah Blah Blah .

Now, Ive gone about and met with other Bullshido Posters , and appearantly thats not Enough , as I take my size with me everywhere I go , appearantly . I dont rag on other ppl systems , unless its like , you know , a MDojo system , But Ive had to hear on and on how there is NO WAY that ANY kind of “KONG FEEEWW” could POSSIBLY be worth anythign , and how Im some sort of delusional FOOL for studying it !

And therefore that My opinions on anything Martial MUST , also , be Delusional , and not based on Practical Experience .

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Dunno , had to Repost it , the Site went down for like 3 minutews , and then when it came back up it wasnt here .

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Oh ok.

Can you post the original thread? I’d like to read this in context.

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Umm , what Origional Thread ? The one that you Posted in before ? That one got eaten by the Server Daemon 8((

Heres the other , connected one , however … http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=429803#post429803

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Yeah that one thanks.

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Djimbe, it amazes me how patient you’ve been with people talking shit about your art. There’s a huge blind spot on these forums where competent Chinese fighters are concerned. I remember posting a Dan Inosanto article about my Sifu, and having someone say “I don’t think this was Inosanto who wrote this, it doesn’t read like his style, do you have any proof?” <guffaw> People will believe what they want to believe.

Props to Khun Kao for setting the record straight.

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That’s interesting and a good SIGN. The question to Kun Kao then is, can Djimbe’s style become an MMA style, as common place as Muay Thai or BJJ?. My suspiscion is that it may be good, maybe not. Might be good IMA, still might not be. The question though is can Djimbe’s teacher train someone to be an MMA champion. That’s the question. Not how fast he is, or how powerful he strikes, because we’ve seen videos of Su Dong Chen and the power is not on the level it should be, or even a MT fighters level. Which is HARD! Ever seen a 120 lber from Thailand kick?

Look at it this way. Someone might say, so and so’s kali instructor, is FAST, has some power that is surprising, and seems to know something about combat techniques and strategies. But we know that kali can’t stand up to a pro boxer. Or a grappler etc.

People like Pat Miletich, Matt Hume, Vanderlei Silve, Randy Couture, Phil Baroni, Ernesto Hoost, Mike Tyson. That’s who TMA has to beat. Is there a CMAist who can beat Phil Baroni? Just Phil Baroni, or would it end up looking like Phil Baroni vs. Dave Menne. That’s all I wonder. I can’t help but think a TMAist may not have the “proper” stand up skills to deal with that sort of striking.

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It has been REPEATEDLY Proffered that somehowmy Training is , on some Level , Bullshido .
Actually the normal contention is that you are bullshido. Since no one has checked out your school it would be silly to discuss its worth. In contrast we have the blustering online persona of Djimbe, replete with sprawl denial, braggadocio and somehow despite no corollary in your real physical appearance, a Napoleon complex.

Comments about your own school are extrapolations about you. Think about that a bit.

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Originally posted by Dochter
[B]Actually the normal contention is that you are bullshido. Since no one has checked out your school it would be silly to discuss its worth. In contrast we have the blustering online persona of Djimbe, replete with sprawl denial, braggadocio and somehow despite no corollary in your real physical appearance, a Napoleon complex.

Comments about your own school are extrapolations about you. Think about that a bit. [/B]

dude shut up .

  1. No matter what the fuck you WANT to think , Bow & arrow stane IS not , and will NEVER BE a Sprawl .

  2. The things that you Claim are “Bullshido” about what I have stated in the past are the PRODUCTS of my training . The arguments that you and I have are the direct products of the variancebetween your trainign and mine . Think about THAT .

  3. Theres nothing bullshido about ME , son . Just because I have been Nice to a couple of Tiny ppl dont let that confuse you . Kindness =/= weakness . OTOH , I KNOW that Im not a Competent Instructor , and therefore I dont run a school , and I fight against those that shouldnt and do in my Community .

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It’s not internal though.

Are you saying you took it easy on SBG?

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“The question to Kun Kao then is, can Djimbe’s style become an MMA style, as common place as Muay Thai or BJJ?”

Unfortunately, I cannot really answer this question because I do not have enough experience to give an honest assessment. As I stated in my original post, I worked with Master Chan for what? 10 minutes? And we only did about 3 or 4 drills in which he was showing me how what he teaches defends against the Jab, the Cross, and the Roundhouse Kick.

Of the 4 things that Master Chan did that stood out to me, I think two of them would work quite well in MMA, and the other two would be questionable.

The kick defense he employed should work. In many instances in fighting, soft blocking is superior to hard blocking. A soft block is easier on you as the defender, but it also makes it harder for your opponent to recover position. I see no reason why his kick defense would not work. But I will note we were working on a roundhouse kick to the upper body, which is not as commonly thrown in MMA as in Muay Thai.

Two of the techniques he employed during our Boxing drills would be questionable, but mostly due to the sport nature of MMA. For one, you wear gloves. Even though MMA gloves are very small, they would still significantly reduce the sting of the type of strike Master Chan was using. There were two different strikes that he performed over and over. A strike to the inside of my arm which “frogged” my arm every single time, and another strike to where my shoulder and pectoral muscles meet. He was using a slapping/stinging strike which without gloves, was causing my arm to go numb with each and every strike. But the addition of MMA-style gloves are likely to minimize the effectivemess of this type of strike.

But, when he slipped my punch and struck me in the jaw…

WOW!

I was impressed. VERY impressed! I threw a Right Cross, which he semi-parried with the blade of his arm as he slipped to my inside. His parrying strike slid up under my arm and underneath my jaw into a kind of uppercut that really would have busted me up good had he followed through at all. He controlled ths strike such that I was easily able to feel what was behind the blow without him taking my head off. As I’ve already stated, you can feel the difference between a blow is solid, and one that is not. His strike, though controlled, left no doubt in my mind regarding what was coming behind it if he chose to cut loose.

So, how does this apply to MMA?

I really have no idea. As I said at the beginning, I didn’t even see what I would call a drop in the bucket of his style or system. I did 3, maybe 4 quick drills with Master Chan, during which time his class only worked on one drill. Then I had to jet to get back to the arena for the remainder of the fights and to hook back up with my coaches and teammates.

All I can say for sure is that I was very impressed with what Master Chan showed me, and I think that it is DEFINATELY worth a look by anyone who has an open mind.

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And that’s all anyone can ask, that fighters with an open mind might take something from it or want to learn it. Myself, I think there things for IMAist to exploit. Even destroy other fighters. Similar to how a ground fighter will pwn on a non grappler much of the time. Don’t underestimate the power, and abiltity of IMA to stand on it’s own, in the rush to be viewed as, what you view as “legit”.

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Anyone arguing over what stance someone is in, to prove it’s “kungfu” and not wrestling, shows they don’t know anything about gongfu.

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Originally posted by Khun Kao
[B]“The question to Kun Kao then is, can Djimbe’s style become an MMA style, as common place as Muay Thai or BJJ?”

Unfortunately, I cannot really answer this question because I do not have enough experience to give an honest assessment. As I stated in my original post, I worked with Master Chan for what? 10 minutes? And we only did about 3 or 4 drills in which he was showing me how what he teaches defends against the Jab, the Cross, and the Roundhouse Kick.

Of the 4 things that Master Chan did that stood out to me, I think two of them would work quite well in MMA, and the other two would be questionable.

The kick defense he employed should work. In many instances in fighting, soft blocking is superior to hard blocking. A soft block is easier on you as the defender, but it also makes it harder for your opponent to recover position. I see no reason why his kick defense would not work. But I will note we were working on a roundhouse kick to the upper body, which is not as commonly thrown in MMA as in Muay Thai.

Two of the techniques he employed during our Boxing drills would be questionable, but mostly due to the sport nature of MMA. For one, you wear gloves. Even though MMA gloves are very small, they would still significantly reduce the sting of the type of strike Master Chan was using. There were two different strikes that he performed over and over. A strike to the inside of my arm which “frogged” my arm every single time, and another strike to where my shoulder and pectoral muscles meet. He was using a slapping/stinging strike which without gloves, was causing my arm to go numb with each and every strike. But the addition of MMA-style gloves are likely to minimize the effectivemess of this type of strike.

But, when he slipped my punch and struck me in the jaw…

WOW!

I was impressed. VERY impressed! I threw a Right Cross, which he semi-parried with the blade of his arm as he slipped to my inside. His parrying strike slid up under my arm and underneath my jaw into a kind of uppercut that really would have busted me up good had he followed through at all. He controlled ths strike such that I was easily able to feel what was behind the blow without him taking my head off. As I’ve already stated, you can feel the difference between a blow is solid, and one that is not. His strike, though controlled, left no doubt in my mind regarding what was coming behind it if he chose to cut loose.

So, how does this apply to MMA?

I really have no idea. As I said at the beginning, I didn’t even see what I would call a drop in the bucket of his style or system. I did 3, maybe 4 quick drills with Master Chan, during which time his class only worked on one drill. Then I had to jet to get back to the arena for the remainder of the fights and to hook back up with my coaches and teammates.

All I can say for sure is that I was very impressed with what Master Chan showed me, and I think that it is DEFINATELY worth a look by anyone who has an open mind. [/B]

It seems that, from both your posts, Master Chan is a capable Martial arts instructor.
I am wondering if you manged to chat with Master Chan about his feelings on MMA and sport combat in general ?

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He stresses against conditioning.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=29422&perpage=15&highlight=efist%pagenumber=2

Looking for thread when he says he punked out Chen Fa Ke as a toddler.

When his students lose he claims the other guy fights like he wanted his student to. Even if it’s MT guy.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=29423&threadid=29423&perpage=15&highlight=efist&pagenumber=2

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Djimbe’s school is very good, in terms of lineage and instruction, or so I hear. I’ve read a lot about it, and I have more than his word about its quality.
If you have the occasion to take Hsing I where he takes it, by all means don’t jump it.

About Master Chang in particular, well, a guy who can strike pressure points on Khun Kao is nothing short of impressive. DO study what he has to teach, if you can afford it and you’re nearby.

About Djimbe, I have seen him grappling on the floor in the video, and I have seen him at the Mc Throwdown on video… my opinion can only be derived from those things, and from the fact that Djimbe and I have been hating each other’s guts for a few years now.

The Djimbe persona I can’t care for, on a purely personal level.
From what I see in the Mc Throwdown video, he has the typical ground fighting issues of Chinese fighters. Standing up, he seems to have good rooting (albeit not in the league to stop a shoot, and he surely did not control the head as preached). He also seems to know his Tai Chi, albeit I still think a boxer in his weight league would eat him alive - I wasn’t impressed by the fighting philosophy.

I don’t think he’s bullshido, merely contemptible in his online persona, and surely not in the league he claims to be in. His size, as far as I can see, makes up the most of his skill and determines the way he fights - he can’t be too mobile. The power generation from the legs was good, but I’ve seen Asia do it better on the Throwdown videos - more mobile, and in actual sparring. His reflexes aren’t the best - he didn’t see the shoot coming, but I must say that it was REALLY fast.

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Originally posted by serious harm
[B]He stresses against conditioning.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=29422&perpage=15&highlight=efist%pagenumber=2

Looking for thread when he says he punked out Chen Fa Ke as a toddler. [/B]

Who are you refering to?

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Originally posted by Orion
[B]He also seems to know his Tai Chi, albeit I still think a boxer in his weight league would eat him alive - I wasn’t impressed by the fighting philosophy.

I don’t think he’s bullshido, merely contemptible in his online persona, and surely not in the league he claims to be in. His size, as far as I can see, makes up the most of his skill and determines the way he fights - he can’t be too mobile. The power generation from the legs was good, but I’ve seen Asia do it better on the Throwdown videos - more mobile, and in actual sparring. His reflexes aren’t the best - he didn’t see the shoot coming, but I must say that it was REALLY fast. [/B]

Khun Kao , could you please Respond to/evaluate this ?